Welcome to Season Three of Reconstructing Inclusion!

This is my last episode for 2025.

If I could go back five years, what would I have changed? This solo episode is my honest accounting of where the diversity, equity, and inclusion field went wrong.

The past five years transformed DEI. What started as meaningful change became performance art. Organizations treated inclusion as optics management: do just enough to deflect criticism. But it rarely touched fundamental structures.

Now we're living with the consequences. The resistance has erupted. We may have contributed to the very resistance we were trying to overcome.

🔥 Standout Quotes:

"Instead of enrolling people in a conversation about what organizations structurally needed to change, there was a tremendous amount of energy talking about the structural problem of systemic racism." [00:05:00]

"When we see statistical disparities and immediately conclude their evidence of discrimination, without examining all these other factors, we're committing this fallacy. Disparities don't equal discrimination." [00:11:00]

Resources Mentioned:

Social Justice Fallacies by Thomas Sowell

In This Episode:

[00:05:00] When optics replaced purpose

[00:07:00] Active vs. passive opposition

[00:11:00] The three fallacies affecting DEI work

[00:16:00] The Richard Bilkszto tragedy

[00:22:00] What inclusion work should actually be

[00:24:00] Building durable skills

[00:27:00] Why this moment holds promise

#Inclusion #DEI #Leadership #OrganizationalDevelopment #Diversity

Let's Connect:

https://inclusionwins.com/

https://reconstructinginclusion.substack.com/

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Welcome to Season Three of Reconstructing Inclusion!

When Empathy Becomes Optional: A Conversation with Maaria Mozaffar

When did empathy become something we can turn on and off? When did we start deciding which children deserve protection and which ones don't? These are the uncomfortable questions Maaria Mozaffar forces us to confront.

🔥 Standout Quotes:

"If you are watching that and you think it's just about legalities, should've known better, then I wanna know where your humanity is." [00:16:00]

"I don't believe humans have the right to consider other humans less human... I will keep an eye on every interaction and not pass the buck." [00:34:00]

"Watch your baby be crushed under buildings. We'll see if you're gonna look for someone to blame or you're gonna put on your backpack and say, let's lift this up." [00:35:00]

About Our Guest:

Maaria Mozaffar is an attorney, mediator, legislative drafter, and author of More Than Pretty: How to Live a Life of Substance in an Artificial World.

For over 15 years, she's been writing human-first policies that center dignity and interconnectedness. In this conversation, she argues that we've turned off our empathy and made it optional instead of essential—and that we have the power to turn it back on.

Resources Mentioned:

The Fox and the Hound (animated film): A story about friendship, identity, and choosing humanity over what we’re conditioned to believe.

More Than Pretty: How to Live a Life of Substance in an Artificial World by Maaria Mozaffar: A book about moving away from distractions and creating a life of substance and impact.

In This Episode:

- The three camps: happiness, helplessness, and hiding (and why none are serving us)

- How ethnocentrism is driving immigration policy

- Why we've made empathy optional and how to make it essential again

- Why global education is essential for breaking through propaganda

- How we've chosen to see some people as less deserving of dignity

- The power of one voice and one micro decision

- What it means to stop being an NPC in your own life

Let's Connect:

https://inclusionwins.com/

https://reconstructinginclusion.substack.com/

➡️ Subscribe to Reconstructing Inclusion for more unfiltered conversations about the future of diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI)

Welcome to Season Three of The Reconstructing Inclusion Podcast!

In this episode, Amri Johnson argues that D-E-I as symbols must go, not the principles, but the letters themselves that have become hollow ammunition in a culture war serving no one.

Fresh from the LEAD 2025 conference in Milan, he'd been seeing traction emerge from the wreckage, but it looks radically different from what came before. It's less about representation metrics and identity categories, more about humanity and systems change.

He opens with a story about his 6-year-old son telling him, "this is just a dream"—a moment connecting to Daoist philosophy that forced him to consider how DEI practitioners have been co-creating the very conditions they now face. The question isn't whether DEI should exist, but whether we're brave enough to wake up from the dream we've been living and create something better.

🔥 Standout Quotes:

"D, E, and I are not the essence. The essence has been stuffed into these three letters, and it's like writing the word pizza on paper and handing it to you. That's not pizza." [00:06:00]

"If social capital isn't present, the floors of businesses are hollow and the ceilings are capped. The only change is downward." [00:14:00]

"When we care for the so-called other to help them fulfill their highest potential, that's how we fulfill our own highest potential." [00:20:00]

Resources Mentioned:

LEAD Network Conference 2025: We’re All In

Subscribe to Geoff Marlow on Substack

Cultural Intelligence Center - Since 2004, has helped leaders and teams confidently navigate cultural complexity, leading to stronger collaboration, sharper innovation, and more impactful leadership.

Atlas at Cultural Infusion - delivers world-first missing data, and empowers teams with an innovative, engaging experience.

Time Stamps:

Why both anti-DEI and pro-DEI camps have a stake in keeping the letters alive [00:06:00]

The "pizza metaphor": How we've been arguing about words on paper while everyone goes hungry [00:06:00]

Why social capital trumps financial capital—and what happens when it's absent [00:12:00]

The five fundamental shifts redefining inclusion work over the next 12-18 months [00:15:00]

Moving from racialization/gender/sexuality as organizing principles to centering humanity [00:16:00]

Cultural intelligence as the foundation everyone can build [00:19:00]

Care, openness, safety, and trust as relational infrastructure [00:20:00]

Sense-making as the organizational superpower AI can't replace [00:22:00]

Networks and cognitive diversity as critical survival skills [00:24:00]

➡️ Subscribe to Reconstructing Inclusion for more unfiltered conversations about the future of diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI)

Welcome to Season Three of Reconstructing Inclusion!

This season focuses on opening dialogue about who we are rather than what we ascribe to one another—shifting patterns and practices in the diversity and inclusion space with fresh eyes.

In our Season Three premiere, host Amri Johnson sits down with Ingrid Hu Dahl, leadership coach, consultant, and author of a powerful memoir about identity, loss, and living boldly. Ingrid shares her journey from daily "othering" to authentic belonging, exploring how racial categorization creates artificial divisions and why true safety must come from within.

🔥 Standout Quotes:

"I share that a daily experience with mine, especially growing up in Central New Jersey, in this predominantly white neighborhood, was a reminder that I was different and didn't belong." [00:14:00]

"At your funeral. What does the eulogy say if you continue on this path? What are they saying about you if they couldn't read your resume?" [00:26:00]

"The most poetic answer to that is after my mother died. That was a really big, big, big, big moment of an unleashing of so much." [00:20:00]

About Our Guest:

Ingrid Hu Dahl is an author, speaker, and leadership coach. She is the founder of a coaching and consulting business dedicated to empowering the next generation of leaders.

With over two decades of experience in learning and development, she brings her expertise to a wide range of industries, from corporate and media to nonprofit and social justice organizations. A TEDx speaker and a founding member of the Willie Mae Rock Camp in Brooklyn, Ingrid has a lifelong passion for amplifying underrepresented voices.

Resources Mentioned:

Sun Shining on Morning Snow: A Memoir of Identity, Loss, and Living Boldly by Ingrid Hu Dahl

Works of Audre Lorde - Influential in Ingrid's understanding of intersectional oppression

Adrian Piper's art and writings - Particularly her piece, "Cornered"

Time Stamps:

Double Rejection Across Communities [00:11:00]Experiencing othering from both white and Asian communities as a child

Loss as Liberation [00:20:00] How her mother's death created a massive opening for healing and authenticity

Corporate Identity Crisis [00:24:00] Recognizing how titles and external validation became another limiting categorization

The Funeral Question [00:26:00] What would your eulogy say if they couldn't read your resume?

Global Citizen Experience [00:37:00] Finding belonging internationally where difference becomes an asset rather than othering

Retiring From Race [00:36:00] Discussing Adrian Piper's decision to exist outside racial binaries

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In this episode, host Amri Johnson delivers a powerful season finale reflecting on Season 2's groundbreaking conversations, Johnson challenges core assumptions about diversity work and introduces controversial perspectives on why focusing on racial differences may be counterproductive to anti-racism goals.

Key Discussion Points:

- Move from cataloging differences to reducing distance between humans

- Racialization may perpetuate the foundation of racism itself

- Both DEI advocates and opponents use vague rhetoric preventing real dialogue

- Practitioners need accountability ("skin in the game") for integrity

- Current challenges represent evolution, not rejection of inclusion

🔥 Standout Quotes:

"The focus we've had on anti-racism in the Kendi and DiAngelo sense wasn't resonating with me for quite some time." [00:07:00]

"I have almost 25 years of skin in this game. Skin in the game is about having something to lose when you're wrong." [00:23:00]

➡️ Subscribe to Reconstructing Inclusion for more unfiltered conversations about the future of DEI.

In this episode, I sit down with Dr. Sheena Mason, author of "The Raceless Antiracist: Why Ending Race is the Future of Antiracism," for a conversation that challenged everything I thought I knew about racial justice. Sheena presents her revolutionary "Togetherness Wayfinder" framework—a practical roadmap beyond traditional antiracist thinking toward what she calls "raceless antiracism."

This isn't just academic theory. It's a fundamental reimagining of how we approach inclusion, justice, and human liberation that could transform organizations, communities, and individual relationships.

🔥 Standout Quotes:

"The fiction of race is the dehumanizing apparatus that gets attached to human beings that then allows us to be broken into false hierarchies. And in that way, it's a thoroughly pernicious category and a thoroughly pernicious practice." [00:13:00]

"In that shift, the idea is I'm centering the human right. I'm recentering the human. A person, right? A human who gets racialized as... I'm highlighting the external factors that exists in a particular context." [00:17:30]

"To my mind, racelessness is synonymous with limitlessness and there are two ways that limits get placed onto us. We internalize limits and then place limitations on ourselves." [00:57:00]

About Our Guest:

Dr. Sheena Michele Mason is an influential scholar, educator, and advocate for antirace/ism. As an Assistant Professor of English at SUNY Oneonta, she has dedicated her career to dismantling racism through innovative approaches.

Sheena holds a Ph.D. in English with distinction from Howard University, specializing in African American, American, and Caribbean Literatures. She is the innovator of the "Togetherness Wayfinder" approach and has authored significant works including "The Raceless Antiracist: Why Ending Race is the Future of Antiracism" (2024) and "Theory of Racelessness: A Case for Philosophies of Antirace(ism)" (2022).

Resources Mentioned:

"The Raceless Antiracist: Why Ending Race is the Future of Antiracism" by Dr. Sheena Mason

The Togetherness Wayfinder framework

Time Stamps:

[00:07:00] - Introduction to Dr. Sheena Mason and her work

[00:11:00] - Her journey from trauma to literature as liberation and life's mission

[00:13:00] - Core thesis: Race as a "dehumanizing apparatus" that creates false hierarchies

[00:17:30] - Revolutionary language: From "Black person" to "person racialized as Black"

[00:20:30] - The Scooby Doo metaphor: How race masks five real categories

[00:23:00] - Creolization theory and the controversy over the new Pope's race

[00:28:00] - Deconstructing crime statistics and racialized data collection

[00:32:00] - Shocking reality: Only 3% of people racialized as Black commit violent crimes

[00:43:00] - Historical analysis: Why reconstruction of race has failed since Douglass

[00:48:00] - Centering whiteness in the abolition conversation

[00:52:00] - Why reform-based antiracism feels "safe" to those in power

[00:57:00] - Vision of raceless futures: "Racelessness is synonymous with limitlessness"

[01:00:00] - Parenting without racial categories and creating new possibilities

➡️ Subscribe to Reconstructing Inclusion for more unfiltered conversations about the future of diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI)

In this episode, host Amri Johnson explores why many DEI efforts have failed to deliver sustainable change and offers a principle-centered framework that thrives even in challenging political climates.

Key Discussion Points:

- Why the "Chicken Little" mentality has weakened DEI's position

- The three keys to effective inclusion: accessibility, actionability, and alignment

- How anti-fragile organizations use inclusion as a competitive advantage

- Why both proponents and opponents of DEI have "hijacked" the conversation

- The difference between practitioners with "skin in the game" versus opportunists

- Moving beyond deficit-oriented approaches to create thriving workplaces

🔥 Standout Quote:

"Metaphorically, when the kitchen gets hot, the chefs stay. Those who are hobbyist cooks are more likely to move to a place they can be more comfortable and hope the heat dissipates." [00:17:57]

Resources Mentioned:

Join our free EMERGENT Inclusion Framework virtual event. This isn't another discussion about group identities, allyship, and injustice. While those things have their place, the focus on symptoms rather than diving into the complexity of systems have not unlocked organizational value as practitioners and supporters have hoped for them to. Whether you're a skeptic or champion, your voice matters in this conversation.

Time Stamps:

[00:01:00] - The concept of "so-called DEI" and why this framing matters

[00:03:00] - Making DEI accessible, actionable, and aligned with purpose

[00:05:56] - Anti-fragile organizations: bouncing back stronger from challenges

[00:07:31] - How DEI has been hijacked by both supporters and opponents

[00:09:40] - The power of principles over ideology in the DEI conversation

[00:13:42] - Chicken Little and DEI

[00:16:44] - Why many activists disappear when leadership is most needed

[00:17:57] - "When the kitchen gets hot, the chefs stay"

[00:19:39] - How DEI became associated with deficit-oriented approaches

[00:22:00] - Highlighting practitioners still doing meaningful inclusion work

➡️ Subscribe to Reconstructing Inclusion for more unfiltered conversations about the future of DEI.

In this episode, Howard Ross draws on four decades of DEI experience to offer wisdom in today's polarized climate. Howard, who brought me into the DEI field years ago, discusses how today's backlash fits into historical patterns and provides strategic guidance for practitioners navigating political headwinds.

Key Discussion Points:

- The shift from a "bell curve society" to a "dumbbell curve society"

- Distinguishing between performative, symbolic, and transformational DEI work

- Why activism and organizational change require different skillsets

- Strategic approaches to continuing inclusion work in challenging environments

- Finding hope in historical patterns of social progress

- Seeing humanity across political divides

🔥 Standout Quote:

"We've gone from a Bell curve society where most people are kind of in the middle... to a dumbbell curve society where everything's on the end and nothing's in the middle. And the notion of working with somebody across the aisle is considered pretty much by both sides to be betrayal." - Howard Ross

About Our Guest:

Howard Ross is a lifelong social justice advocate and pioneer in the field of DEI work. As founder of Cook Ross and author of influential books including "Everyday Bias," "ReInventing Diversity," and "Our Search for Belonging," Howard has consulted with hundreds of organizations worldwide. At 74, he describes himself as "rewired not retired" and continues to be an influential voice in the field. Howard is currently working on a third edition of "Everyday Bias" with his son Jake, focusing on how AI and social media are influenced by bias.

Resources Mentioned:

Everyday Bias by Howard Ross

IDEAS Generation - An organization for younger DEI practitioners co-founded by Dan Egol, a former Cook Ross employee.

The Fire Next Time by James Baldwin - Mentioned by Howard as a transformative book that changed his worldview when he read it in 1966.

Time Stamps:

[00:04:00] - Howard's background in civil rights work and how his family's Holocaust experience shaped him

[00:08:30] - The concept of "dumbbell curve society" and its impact on DEI work

[00:11:45] - The dual nature of DEI backlash: legitimate critique and politically motivated attacks

[00:13:50] - The three levels of DEI work: cosmetic, performative, and symbolic

[00:15:30] - The critical difference between activism and organizational change

[00:33:00] - Thinking strategically versus emotionally about DEI work

[00:39:00] - Finding hope in the historical patterns of progress and retrenchment

[00:44:00] - The importance of seeing humanity in those with different political views

➡️ Subscribe to Reconstructing Inclusion for more unfiltered conversations about the future of DEI.