Kate didn't plan to measure their burnout by the number of bags of pink-and-purple Mother's animal cookies consumed at their desk…but here we are. Kim's clue was a rotating cycle of stomach aches and "maybe these aren't panic attacks but the room is definitely spinning." And our guest, Norlander Wilson, talks about showing up to work without showering or brushing her teeth for days because she literally couldn't.

This one is about burnout at work — not the "I need a weekend off" kind, but the kind that rewires your nervous system and convinces you you're the problem.

About our guest:
Norlander Wilson is an experimental psychologist and an orbit disruptor by calling. She is the founder and CEO of Becoma, an operational strategy firm that helps leaders, creatives, and organizations move from survival mode into clearer systems and healthier energy. Through her work, Norlander blends psychology, strategy, and system design to challenge the patterns that keep people stuck and to create ways of working that don't require self-sacrifice. She's also the host of the podcast "She Don't Work Like That, No More," where she unpacks wounded leadership patterns and reimagines what it means to build, lead, and live without breaking yourself in the process.

The theme today: burnout at work, and how project managers — the people everyone counts on — get trapped in it.

Norlander doesn't sugarcoat it:
"Burnout is a collective conversation, especially in an organization."

She calls out how burnout starts at the top. If leadership pushes 100 hours, teams assume they should push 150. If leaders are exhausted, their teams are exhausted.

Burnout isn't a personal failing; it's a system failure — and PMs often absorb the blast radius.

Kate opens up about their 2024 breakdown:
crying daily, losing appetite except for cookies, medical leave, and the creeping belief that if they just tried harder, they could fix everything. Kim shares his own burnout and the helpless feeling of watching teammates slide into it — seeing that "day-five-I-haven't-showered look" on Zoom and wanting to save them.

And then there's the half-million-dollar moment.

Kate negotiated nearly $500,000/year in compensation and turned it down because walking into the building made them feel sick. Not metaphorically — physically.
"I'm not getting on that wheel unless I want to."

Norlander validates it:
"If it's profound burnout and everything triggers you at that job, yes, it's time to leave."

She gives language PMs desperately need:

• Capacity check-ins, not productivity interrogations

• Systems that hold boundaries so you don't have to

• Stop parenting grown adults at work — "You are not an emotional container."

• Let people fail so they learn the consequence, not you

Kim connects it to the "mouse on the wheel" experiment — the difference between choosing to run and being forced to run. The stress chemicals — literally — are not the same.

Norlander's tools for burnout prevention and burnout recovery:

• Audit your systems quarterly

• Build boundaries into SOPs

• Protect scheduled joy like you protect deadlines

• Delegate to the system, not your nervous system

Kate shares how protecting Tuesday riding lessons became non-negotiable. Not because horseback riding is magic (although…it kind of is), but because no one else will protect your time but you.

Norlander's toast at the end is the line we're all putting on sticky notes:
"When you do find your boundary… don't compromise it for anyone."

If burnout at work is starting to feel familiar — if you're living on cookies, caffeine, and dread — pull up a chair. You're not lazy. You're not failing. The system is failing you.

And if you're tired of carrying the emotional labor for your entire project team, come get some backup and community. Join us at: https://pmhappyhour.com/membership
© Project Management Happy Hour

Ever freeze up in a tough project conversation? Or worse—blow it up? In this episode of Project Management Happy Hour, Kim and Kate revisit their all-time favorite: Crucial Conversations by the team at VitalSmarts (now Crucial Learning). This book completely changed how they lead, negotiate, and manage conflict. Learn how to spot when a conversation turns "crucial," stay in dialogue instead of defensiveness, and use "don't-do statements" and "start with heart" to navigate conflict like a pro.

We're not sponsored—just obsessed. If you lead projects or people, this book will change your life.

🍸 Pull up a stool at the bar—here's what we're talking about this round: 🍸

Every project manager has been there: a stakeholder meltdown, a team standoff, or that one sponsor meeting where your pulse hits 200. The question is—what do you do when the conversation turns crucial?

In this PM Happy Hour throwback, Kate and Kim revisit one of their most popular and enduring episodes—based on the book Crucial Conversations: Tools for Talking When Stakes Are High by the VitalSmarts team (now Crucial Learning). They aren't paid to say this—but this book changed their lives and careers.

Seventeen years after Kate's colleague first handed her this book, they still call it "the single most important leadership book for project managers." Forget the PMBOK—start here if you want to build trust, executive presence, and influence.

You'll learn how to:

• Recognize when a conversation becomes crucial: differing opinions, high stakes, and strong emotions.

• Avoid the "fool's choice"—the false belief that you must choose between honesty and peace.

• Create a shared pool of meaning, so everyone's ideas and emotions contribute to better decisions.

• Use "Start With Heart" to keep your cool and focus on what you really want—for yourself, others, and the relationship.

• Apply "Don't-Do Statements" to set boundaries, de-escalate tension, and build empathy.

From team conflicts to sponsor negotiations, this episode gives you practical, human ways to talk about hard things—and actually make things better. Kim and Kate share real-world examples from project meetings, resource battles, and even personal life to show how dialogue beats defensiveness every time.

And they're not just quoting theory. Crucial Conversations is built on decades of behavioral research and communication psychology—and it's as relevant today as ever. Whether you manage projects, programs, or entire teams, mastering these techniques can level up your leadership, reduce drama, and get you promoted faster.

📚 Get the Book:
Crucial Conversations: Tools for Talking When Stakes Are High
by Kerry Patterson, Joseph Grenny, Ron McMillan, and Al Switzler
Available anywhere books are sold (we're not sponsored—we just love it).

JOIN THE HAPPY HOUR!
Want even more? Join us at pmhappyhour.com/membership to get PDUsfor episodes, downloadable templates, access to our PM community, and 1:1 time with Kim and Kate.