In this special environmental highlights edition, Dabis reflects on the "ecocide" occurring in Gaza—the loss of ancient orange trees, the contamination of 95% of the water supply, and the long-term chemical impact on the soil. She explores how this ecological destruction mirrors the "continuous Nakba" and the inheritance of generational trauma.

My guest today is Cherien Dabis. She’s a filmmaker and actress who has spent much of her career trying to fill the silences in the American narrative. In 2022, she became the first Palestinian to receive an Emmy nomination. She has worked on everything from The L Word to Ozark, Only Murders in the Building to the hit Netflix series Mo, always with an eye toward breaking the one-dimensional mold that has historically defined Arab representation in the West. But her latest project is perhaps her most ambitious yet. It’s a film called All That’s Left of You. It follows one Palestinian family across three generations, beginning in 1948 and ending in 2022. It is a story of exile and memory, and it’s Jordan’s official submission for this year’s Academy Awards.

(0:00) Ecological Loss in Gaza Dabis reflects on the devastating environmental impact of the conflict, from the destruction of ecosystems and food supplies to the severe contamination of water and soil

(2:14) The Inheritance of Trauma An exploration of how the Nakba remains a collective, living trauma passed down through generations, shaping Palestinian identity regardless of direct lineage

(4:01) Inherited Trauma: Identity And History The passage of trauma requires a multi-generational lens to truly understand how history and political events shape a people's humanity

(4:24) The Moment Of Activation: Racism In Ohio Experiencing severe racism and death threats during the first Gulf War ignited Dabis's lifelong drive to challenge dangerous media stereotypes through authentic storytelling

(6:49) Filming The Nakba: Art Imitating Crisis Evacuating Palestine weeks before shooting forced the crew into a state of crisis, resulting in a film where art and life merged amidst an unfolding tragedy

(9:04) The Bakri Acting Dynasty: Collaborative Lineage Collaborating with four generations of the Bakri family—including the late Mohammad Bakri—brought immense authenticity and a real-world family dynamic to the screen

(10:37) Previous Films, Television And Craft Directing episodes for acclaimed series like Ozark and Only Murders in the Building

(11:28) Psychological Violence: Impact Of Humiliation The film moves beyond physical violence to examine how non-physical harassment and the humiliation of a patriarch leave devastating, permanent relational scars

(13:50) Broken Distribution: Industry Gatekeepers Dabis addresses the systemic fear in Hollywood distribution and her decision to form an artist-driven model to bypass traditional gatekeeping

(14:39) Truth Seekers: The Next Generation

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"To be in the process of making things, to be in the process of talking to people about what things mean. The creative process is actually, I think, the most meaningful part of life, but it's very hard to measure. When we get shoved towards a world that demands easy measurables, it's very hard to optimize away from the creative process and optimize towards things that are more static."

On this episode of The Creative Process, philosopher C. Thi Nguyen joins us to discuss his new book, The Score: How to Stop Playing Somebody Else's Game. He unpacks the profound concept of "value capture"—the moment we stop caring about the rich, subtle experiences of life and start obsessing over simplified, external metrics like grades, likes, and screen time.

Beyond the trap of quantification, C. Thi Nguyen explores the liberating power of games and art. We discuss how true play requires us to step lightly between different rule sets, the difference between art and craft, and how reclaiming our creative process might just be the ultimate meaning of life.

(0:00) THE TRAP OF VALUE CAPTURE How external metrics and scoring systems hijack our personal values and creativity

(7:09) THE LOGIC OF QUANTIFICATION Why simple numbers travel well but strip away vital human context, from screen time to grades

(11:58) THE MAGIC CIRCLE OF PLAY Understanding the difference between a gamified life and the true, disattached beauty of struggle

(14:57) ART, CRAFT, AND METRICS Why taking the hard way leads to genuine creative expression, and how to spot value-laden systems

(19:34) THE POLITICS OF MEASUREMENT Questioning the assumption that complex human traits, like IQ or consciousness, can be quantified on a single scale

(21:31) THE SPIRIT OF PLAY Using constraints to boost collaborative storytelling and learning to step lightly between different rule worlds

Episode Website

www.creativeprocess.info/pod

Instagram:@creativeprocesspodcast

We live in a world obsessed with tracking. From our sleep scores to our social media engagement, invisible systems constantly quantify our worth. But when we replace our deepest values with these thin, easily measurable numbers, we lose a part of our humanity. It is time to step outside the magic circle of optimization and reclaim the unstructured joy of being alive.

C. Thi Nguyen is a philosopher whose work gets to the heart of the invisible structures that define modern life. He first established himself as a food writer, exploring the sensory world, before turning his intellectual gaze toward the philosophy of games and agency. He’s the author of Games: Agency As Art. His new book is The Score: How to Stop Playing Somebody Else's Game. He argues that when we simplify our values for the sake of a leaderboard, something inside the human spirit begins to die. In it, he explores a concept called "value capture"—the moment we stop caring about the experience and start obsessing over the metric. He joins me now to discuss how we can lead a playful, spontaneous life without getting lost in the scoring systems of the 21st century.

(0:00) THE MEANING OF LIFE IS THE CREATIVE PROCESS Why the most valuable parts of life are impossible to measure

(6:46) VALUE CAPTURE DEFINED How external metrics and institutional scoring systems take over our personal values

(11:38) THE METRICS WE LIVE BY The invisible toll of screen time, credit scores, and daily optimization

(19:44) THE LOGIC OF QUANTIFICATION Why simple numbers travel well but strip away vital human context

(24:13) THE MAGIC CIRCLE OF PLAY Understanding the difference between a gamified life and the true beauty of struggle

(31:56) ART AS A GAME How taking the hard way and avoiding efficiency leads to genuine creative expression

(38:48) THE POLITICS OF TECHNOLOGY Why tools and systems like factories and databases are never truly value-neutral

(44:23) AI AND HUMAN CREATIVITY Navigating the tension between automated efficiency and expressive human art

(50:44) THE POLITICS OF IQ Questioning the assumption that complex human traits can be measured on a single scale

(1:01:12) NARRATIVE SCAFFOLDING How structured constraints in role-playing games can actually boost collaborative storytelling

(1:10:00) THE SPIRIT OF PLAY Stepping lightly between different rule worlds and reclaiming our agency

Episode Website

www.creativeprocess.info/pod

@creativeprocesspodcast