Happy 2026. This Episode is hosted by Chris Maffeo and brought to you by MAFFEO DRINKS. A Deep-Dive Analysis of This Episode is Available at maffeodrinks.com

Celebrate with us our 3rd anniversary with a special 30% off forever at maffeodrinks.com/anniversary

Maurice and I dive deep into the uncomfortable truths about brand building that most people dance around. We start with his killer insight: 95% of your target market isn't buying your category right now, so what do you do about that? Through war stories from Hendrick's (which took 10 years of faith before showing data-driven success) and Monkey Shoulder (almost killed until the team saw 30-year-younger drinkers going drinking it), we explore why timing beats tactics every time.

The conversation gets real about money, not the sexy fundraising decks, but the unsexy plumbing like understanding your value chain where the gap between gross and net pricing is often bigger than your entire A&P budget. Maurice drops his "love and money" framework and we tackle the elephant in every room: how founders pitch exits while asking for investment, spread themselves across 20+ countries while selling 80% in three, and mistake motion for momentum. Plus, I share my Greek vs Roman cities analogy that perfectly captures why beautiful marketing without operational excellence is like building on sand. This is the episode where theory meets the trenches.

Timestamps:

• 00:00 The 95/5 Rule - Why Most of Your Market Isn't Buying
• 03:45 Hendricks Story - 10 Years of Faith Before Data
• 07:20 Monkey Shoulder - From Near Death to Revolutionary Success
• 11:30 Top-Down vs Bottom-Up - The Alignment Problem
• 15:15 Value Chain Deep Dive - Finding Hidden Money
• 19:40 Gross vs Net - The Gap Bigger Than Your A&P Budget
• 23:00 Love and Money Framework for Distribution
• 27:30 The Exit Obsession Problem
• 31:20 Proof of Concept vs Geographic Spread
• 35:00 Playing to Your Strengths as an Independent
• 38:45 Final Thoughts - Consistency Across Objectives

This episode is brought to you by MAFFEO DRINKS, an Advisory helping drinks leaders execute bottom-up growth while managing stakeholder expectations.

Celebrate with us our 3rd anniversary with a special 30% off forever at maffeodrinks.com/anniversary

Happy 2026. This Episode is hosted by Chris Maffeo and brought to you by MAFFEO DRINKS. A Deep-Dive Analysis of This Episode is Available at maffeodrinks.com

Celebrate with us our 3rd anniversary with a special 30% off forever at maffeodrinks.com/anniversary

Brodie Meah returns to dive deep into how Top Cuvée transformed neighborhood loyalty into scalable brand equity. We explore the "trust engine" concept: how Top Cuvée became the curator that removes wine selection paralysis by stamping their approval across a portfolio of producers.

Brodie reveals how data analysis exposed community layers: restaurant regulars placing 100+ e-commerce orders, proving physical venues create digital customers. The conversation unpacks why natural wine terminology limits reach, how partnering with "like-minded" establishments creates compound growth, and why you must build credibility through your own channels before wholesale accepts you.

From the customer who bought their t-shirt to national chains now calling, this is about scaling community without losing soul, proving you can grow from 40 covers to widespread distribution while keeping the neighborhood spirit alive.

Timestamps:

• 00:00 Community as Foundation - "Nothing Without It"
• 02:30 Natural Wine's Niche Trap - Choosing Taste Over Ideology
• 05:00 Building the Trust Engine - Curation as Product
• 08:30 COVID Discovery - Cross-Channel Customer Loyalty
• 11:15 Physical Venues as Brand Laboratories
• 14:00 Glass by Glass - Why Trust Can't Be Rushed
• 17:00 The T-Shirt Customer and Brand Evangelism
• 19:30 Like-Minded Partners - Ecosystem Building
• 22:00 Own Channels First, Then Wholesale
• 24:30 From Local Hero to National Interest
• 26:00 Community First, Always

This episode is brought to you by MAFFEO DRINKS, an Advisory helping drinks leaders execute bottom-up growth while managing stakeholder expectations.

Celebrate with us our 3rd anniversary with a special 30% off forever at maffeodrinks.com/anniversary

Happy 2026. This Episode is hosted by Chris Maffeo and brought to you by MAFFEO DRINKS. A Deep-Dive Analysis of This Episode is Available at maffeodrinks.com

Celebrate with us our 3rd anniversary with a special 30% off forever at maffeodrinks.com/anniversary

In this second part of the conversation on MAFFEO DRINKS, host Chris Maffeo continues with Hunter Gregory, Bar Manager at Maybe Sammy in Sydney, diving into the delicate balance between technical excellence and guest experience that determines bar success.

The discussion explores why bars focusing too heavily on technique without guest experience have closed in recent years, while others with great atmosphere but weak drinks programs also struggle to survive. Hunter introduces the "pie and cherry" philosophy of guest shifts. You can't have the cherry (guest shift excitement) without the pie (consistent bar quality), revealing why some bars create amazing guest shift experiences but disappoint when visited in person.

We examine the backbreaking work of scaling cocktail culture person by person, teaching 15 guests about proper espresso martinis who then tell their friends, slowly building educated consumer base over years. The conversation covers bartender education expectations versus consumer reality (they don't care about cocktail history like we don't care about stock market details), menu design strategies that include twisted versions of top 10 classic cocktails people actually order, and the challenge of explaining how to order a martini properly without overwhelming guests. Hunter shares why eight or nine team members designed Maybe Sammy's new menu rather than the bar manager alone, ensuring both technical innovation and guest-focused accessibility.

We explore when technique-driven approaches work (Bangkok's Burus with beef broth cocktails for ready demographics) versus when they fail (Sydney's upper-middle-class scene not ready for extreme experimentation), the role of social media in playful consumer education, and why guest shifts succeed when they create curiosity rather than just industry networking. The discussion addresses the frustration of overly technical bartenders explaining entire drink concepts when guests just want a twisted Americano, the importance of brand managers attending guest shifts they sponsor, and understanding that people seek experiences making them feel better rather than cocktail education lectures.

Timestamps:

• 00:00 Introduction: Occasions Over Demographics in Cocktail Culture
• 03:15 Journey Through Spirits: Negroni to Boulevard to Whiskey
• 06:40 Maybe Sammy's Clientele: Tested and Fortunate
• 10:25 Balancing Boundary Pushing with Guest Experience
• 14:50 Bangkok's Burus vs Sydney Demographics
• 18:20 Consistency, Persistence & Building Regular Trust
• 22:35 The Technique vs Experience Disconnect
• 26:10 Scaling Cocktail Culture Person by Person
• 29:45 How to Order a Martini: Consumer Education Challenge
• 32:50 Guest Shifts: The Pie and Cherry Philosophy
• 35:30 Wrap up: Creating Curiosity Through Fun and Experience

This episode is brought to you by MAFFEO DRINKS, an Advisory helping drinks leaders execute bottom-up growth while managing stakeholder expectations.

Celebrate with us our 3rd anniversary with a special 30% off forever at maffeodrinks.com/anniversary

Happy 2026. This Episode is hosted by Chris Maffeo and brought to you by MAFFEO DRINKS. A Deep-Dive Analysis of This Episode is Available at maffeodrinks.com

Celebrate with us our 3rd anniversary with a special 30% off forever at maffeodrinks.com/anniversary

In this second part of the conversation on MAFFEO DRINKS, host Chris Maffeo continues the discussion with Matilda Andersson, Managing Director at Truth Consulting, diving deeper into practical frameworks and methodologies for consumer research in the drinks industry.

The conversation introduces the Four Cs Framework (Consumer, Culture, Category, Company) as a holistic approach to brand strategy that moves beyond focusing solely on consumers to incorporate broader cultural shifts and company truths—revealing why culture is the most neglected element despite being critical for long-term success. We explore the dangers of drinks industry echo chambers where brands become too geeky about serves and specifications while missing how consumers actually behave.

Matilda shares insights on customer closeness programs that take design teams and brand managers out of offices to meet real customers in their natural environments. The discussion examines whether passion for the category matters for drinks professionals, the tension between short-term KPIs and long-term vision, and the challenge of bridging qualitative gut-feel insights with rigorous research methodologies.

We address what makes research genuinely useful versus a bureaucratic chore, emphasizing honesty, collaboration, and actionable insights over data dumping. The conversation reveals how brands can stay relevant across multiple generations without alienating existing customers, focusing on cultural connection points rather than manufactured demographic differences.

Timestamps:

• 00:00 - Introduction: Making Brands Relevant Across Generations
• 02:45 - The Four Cs Framework: Consumer, Culture, Category, Company
• 07:20 - Culture as the Most Neglected Element in Strategy
• 10:50 - Settling Arguments: When Research Briefs Have Hidden Agendas
• 14:30 - Category Myopia in Drinks Industry
• 18:40 - The Geek Problem: Serves, Specifications & Echo Chambers
• 23:15 - Customer Closeness Programs: Taking Teams to Meet Real People
• 27:50 - Does Passion for Category Matter for Drinks Professionals?
• 31:20 - KPIs, Short-Termism & Fear of the Future
• 34:45 - Bridging Gut-Feel Insights with Rigorous Research
• 37:30 - What Makes Research Useful: Honesty & Collaboration
• 40:15 - Wrap-up: Participation, Co-creation & Breaking Down Walls

This episode is brought to you by MAFFEO DRINKS, an Advisory helping drinks leaders execute bottom-up growth while managing stakeholder expectations.

Celebrate with us our 3rd anniversary with a special 30% off forever at maffeodrinks.com/anniversary

Happy 2026. This Episode is hosted by Chris Maffeo and brought to you by MAFFEO DRINKS. A Deep-Dive Analysis of This Episode is Available at maffeodrinks.com

Celebrate with us our 3rd anniversary with a special 30% off forever at maffeodrinks.com/anniversary

Mark Ward, founder of Regal Rogue, joins for a conversation validating bottom-up principles through 15 years of vermouth brand building. The discussion explores the actual mechanics of turning one account into ten, ten into a hundred, and the behavior that happens in between those numbers.

The conversation challenges common misconceptions about bottom-up building: it's not about being small, building slowly, or lacking ambition. It's about the specific actions required to convert relationships, the constant auditing of whether your message connects with buyers, and understanding that past success guarantees nothing about future performance.

Through examples spanning Seedlip's category creation, Diageo's Distilled Ventures program, CÎROC's P Diddy turnaround, and Regal Rogue's 15-year journey to simplifying their serves down to three drinks, the discussion reveals how the nuances of brand building remain fundamentally different across environments.

What worked in 2011 operates differently in 2026, and expertise from one launch doesn't translate automatically to the next.

The conversation establishes that bottom-up isn't a "small brand" strategy. It's the behavior required at any scale when building genuine relationships and advocacy, whether you're at 1,000 nine liters or 1,000,000 nine liters. The critical work involves constant checking that what you think you're saying actually connects with what buyers hear, because the gap between brand intention and market perception determines everything.

Timestamps

• 00:00 Introduction and Greetings
• 00:40 Discussing Bottom-Up Mentality
• 01:51 Challenges in Building a Brand
• 03:57 Realizations and Reflections
• 05:34 Simplifying the Brand Message
• 08:09 Insights on Craft Brands and Big Brands
• 12:55 Principles of Brand Building
• 22:37 Consistency in Brand Messaging
• 31:55 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

This episode is brought to you by MAFFEO DRINKS, an Advisory helping drinks leaders execute bottom-up growth while managing stakeholder expectations.

Celebrate with us our 3rd anniversary with a special 30% off forever at maffeodrinks.com/anniversary

Happy 2026. This Episode is hosted by Chris Maffeo and brought to you by MAFFEO DRINKS. A Deep-Dive Analysis of This Episode is Available at maffeodrinks.com

Celebrate with us our 3rd anniversary with a special 30% off forever at maffeodrinks.com/anniversary

Steve Grasse returns to MAFFEO DRINKS for a conversation about the current state of the spirits industry. Grasse, founder of Quaker City Mercantile and Tamworth Distillery, brings perspective from both the brand building and distillery sides of the business.

His previous work includes Hendrick's Gin and his current portfolio spans luxury craft spirits at Tamworth to the non-alcoholic Pathfinder brand. The previous episode with Grasse (Episode 27, recorded roughly two years ago when Brand Mysticism first came out) was one of the best-performing episodes on the podcast.

The discussion examines what Grasse calls the "Spirits Apocalypse," a structural correction facing the industry through overproduction of bourbon and whiskey, shifting consumer habits, and the fading novelty of craft distilling. The conversation moves from macro industry dynamics to brand fundamentals, exploring how core brand strength determines survival when market conditions turn hostile. The talk emphasizes the importance of strong brand fundamentals, challenges of rapid expansion, and the rise of new-to-world Ready-To-Drink innovations, providing actionable advice for both established and emerging brands navigating this tumultuous market.

Timestamps

00:00 Introduction and Welcome Back

00:19 The Spirits Apocalypse: An Overview

01:15 Craft Distilling: Challenges and Changes

03:47 Brand Fundamentals and Market Shifts

05:23 Advice for Craft Distillers

08:54 Innovative Success Stories

11:53 The Importance of Core Brand Values

13:50 Adapting to Market Changes

16:07 Tamworth Distillery Portfolio and Business Model

18:45 The Celebrity Exit Delusion vs Building for Passion

21:30 Experimentation and Pragmatism Over Big Bets

23:15 Brand Ambassadors Must Drive Sales, Not Just Talk

25:40 FMCG Invasion vs Old School Intuition - Industry Polarization

28:20 On-Trade vs Off-Trade Debate is Obsolete

30:10 Board Pressure and Why Solid Brand Core Enables Tactical Freedom

33:25 Physical Fitness Core Analogy - Brand Strength as Insulation

35:54 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

This episode is brought to you by MAFFEO DRINKS, an Advisory helping drinks leaders execute bottom-up growth while managing stakeholder expectations.

Celebrate with us our 3rd anniversary with a special 30% off forever at maffeodrinks.com/anniversary

Happy 2026. This Episode is hosted by Chris Maffeo and brought to you by MAFFEO DRINKS. A Deep-Dive Analysis of This Episode is Available at maffeodrinks.com

Celebrate with us our 3rd anniversary with a special 30% off forever at maffeodrinks.com/anniversary

Eric Franco, a former SABMiller colleague, recently Chief Sales & Marketing Officer at Brewdog USA and entrepreneur who started as a bar owner, joins for a discussion validating core bottom-up principles through battlefield experience.

Working long days running his own bar before selling for global brands, the conversation confirms what becomes clear through market observation: everyone agrees on bottom-up methodology in theory, but execution fails when immediate gratification culture, social media distortion, and funding pressure collide with foundational discipline.

The discussion explores patterns visible across markets: brands hiring VPs before mastering founder-led selling, Target distribution forcing unsustainable multi-state expansion, and burning retail relationships in concentrated markets.

Eric's owner-operator perspective adds depth to the systematic approach to channel selection, geographic expansion, and the three-year foundation period required before authentic scaling becomes possible. ​

Timestamps

• 00:00 Introduction and Catching Up
• 01:11 Defining 'Bottom Up' in Brand Building
• 04:36 Challenges in Brand Growth and Market Expectations
• 09:41 The Importance of Local Market Mastery
• 15:16 Balancing Big Opportunities with Realistic Growth
• 32:02 Final Thoughts and Wrap-Up

This episode is brought to you by MAFFEO DRINKS, an Advisory helping drinks leaders execute bottom-up growth while managing stakeholder expectations.

Celebrate with us our 3rd anniversary with a special 30% off forever at maffeodrinks.com/anniversary

Happy 2026. This Episode is hosted by Chris Maffeo and brought to you by MAFFEO DRINKS. A Deep-Dive Analysis of This Episode is Available at maffeodrinks.com

Celebrate with us our 3rd anniversary with a special 30% off forever at maffeodrinks.com/anniversary

Robert Simonson, author of seven cocktail books including "A Proper Drink: The Untold Story of How a Band of Bartenders Saved the Civilized Drinking World," joins to discuss how the modern cocktail revival actually happened.

This conversation explores how dead crafts come back to life through individuals rather than institutions, why certain innovations spread while others stay local, and the challenge of documenting history while participants are still alive. Simonson spent 18 months interviewing over 200 people across multiple continents to map how a small group of obsessives rebuilt an entire profession from scratch. The discussion reveals patterns about how quality movements emerge, scale, and risk being forgotten by the next generation.

Timestamps

• 00:00 Introduction and Welcome
• 00:26 Discussing 'A Proper Drink'
• 02:47 The Cocktail Renaissance
• 05:07 Global Influence and Cross-Pollination
• 12:23 Modern Classic Cocktails
• 23:22 Local Influences on Cocktails
• 32:37 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

This episode is brought to you by MAFFEO DRINKS, an Advisory helping drinks leaders execute bottom-up growth while managing stakeholder expectations.

Celebrate with us our 3rd anniversary with a special 30% off forever at maffeodrinks.com/anniversary