Legalizing Kinship with César Rodríguez-Garavito

In this conversation, Victoria Loorz speaks with legal scholar César Rodríguez-Garavito, founding director of MOTH (More Than Human Life) at NYU School of Law and a leading voice in multispecies justice. César has led landmark climate change, rights of nature, and Indigenous rights cases, including serving on the Science Panel for the Amazon and as an expert witness before the Inter-American Court of Human Rights.

Together, they delve into César’s collaboration with Project CETI, which uses AI and non invasive technologies to study sperm whale communication. They explore the audacious possibility that whales might one day be heard in court not as property or evidence, but as subjects with legally recognized voices and interests. At its core, this dialogue is about dismantling human supremacy, crafting ethical guardrails for emerging technologies, and midwifing a shift from dominance to kinship.

Connect with Cesar:

• Website: mothlife.org
• Podcast: Crossing The River

Mentioned in the episode:

• Ecology Law Quarterly Journal (2025 Publication): What if We Understood What Animals Are Saying?: The Legal Impact of AI-Assisted Studies of Animal Communication
• Organization: CETI
• NYU Article: Marine Biologists Are Using AI to Decode Whale Speech. NYU Law Scholars Are Exploring What That Means for Animals’ Legal Rights
• The New Yorker Article: Can We Talk To Whales?
  • Plus: The New Yorker Companion Video
• NYU Article: MOTH Unveils New Framework for Nonhuman Animal Communication Technologies
• PEPP (Prepare, Engage, Prevent, Protect) Framework: Nonhuman Animal Communication Technologies
• City of Ojai Ordinance No. 940
• Book: An Immense World - How Animal Senses Reveal the Hidden Realms Around Us by Ed Yong

Connect with the Center:

• Website: wildspirituality.earth
• Victoria's Website: victorialoorz.com
• Email: [e-mail]
• Linktree: linktr.ee/ctrforwildspirituality
• Instagram: @center_for_wild_spirituality

Timestamps:

• 00:00 – Introduction
• 07:35 – Interview Begins
• 08:16 – Formed By Columbia
• 10:52 – Spiritual Formation
• 11:50 – Learning the Language of Sperm Whales
• 14:44 – Expanding The Understanding of More Than Human
• 18:41 – Letting the Whales Testify For Themselves
• 21:17 – The Birthing Rings of Sperm Whales
• 26:28 – Gentle Technology and Ethical Guidelines
• 32:19 – Imagining the Future of Multispecies Justice
• 38:59 – How To Connect
• 41:45 – Wild Invitation
• 43:37 – Credits