There's a book about artificial intelligence that doesn't start with Sam Altman. It doesn't start with Elon Musk. It starts in 1994, at Cambridge, where a teenager named Demis Hassabis is reading Gödel, Escher, Bach and concluding, before most of his professors would have agreed, that first-order logic can't be the full answer to building intelligence.

Sebastian Mallaby spent years inside that story. His new book, The Infinity Machine: Demis Hassabis, DeepMind, and the Quest for Superintelligence, is the most serious attempt yet to explain not just what AI is, but why the people building it can't stop. His answer draws on a line Jeff Hinton borrowed from Robert Oppenheimer: invention is sweet. A scientist, given the chance to build something, simply cannot resist. The consequences come later.

In this conversation, Mallaby joins Josh Tyson and Robb Wilson to explore the full sweep of the Demis Hassabis story — from game designer to neuroscientist to Nobel laureate to the man running Google's flagship AI lab. They talk about why DeepMind was built the way it was, with neuroscientists and physicists and probabilistic mathematicians before AI was even a field, and how that cross-disciplinary foundation ended up mattering more than anyone expected. They talk about what the defeat of the world Go champion felt like from the inside, the humans who gave up and the ones who discovered new depths. And they talk about what it means that the internet, a thing nobody built to train AI, turns out to be exactly the fuel the industrial revolution of intelligence needed. Demis's own metaphor: it's like dinosaurs that died and turned into oil. Nobody designed it for this. It just happened to be there.

The conversation also gets into what Mallaby calls the infinity machine: the reason the kind of inductive learning AI uses requires almost infinite examples to be reliable, and why the name captures something the scaling law charts obscure. Why the internet taught us more about the range of human experience than Hassabis expected. Why gaming runs so deep through the entire history of machine intelligence. And what it actually means to ask whether a machine is intelligent, when the people who built DeepMind weren't sure they had a definition.

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This episode is supported by OneReach.ai

Forged over a decade of R&D and proven in 10,000+ deployments, OneReach.ai’s GSX is the first complete AI agent runtime environment (circa 2019) — a hardened AI agent architecture for enterprise control and scale.

Backed by UC Berkeley, recognized by Gartner, and trusted across highly regulated industries, including healthcare, finance, government and telecommunications.

A complete system for accelerating AI adoption — design, train, test, deploy, monitor, and orchestrate neurosymbolic applications (agents).

- Use any AI models

- Build and deploy intelligent agents fast

- Create guardrails for organizational alignment

- Enterprise-grade security and governance

Book a free demo:

https://onereach.ai/book-a-demo/?utm_source=soundcloud&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=podcast_s7e6&utm_content=1

---------- The revised and significantly updated second edition of our bestselling book about succeeding with AI agents, Age of Invisible Machines, is available everywhere: Amazon — https://bit.ly/4hwX0a5

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The IRS has roughly 60,000 fax machines, and nobody can get rid of them. Not because there’s a law that says you have to use them (there almost certainly isn’t), but because likely decades ago a memo got written, somebody interpreted fax machines as the most secure transmission method, and that memo calcified into what Jennifer Pahlka calls "folk law," a perceived rule that nobody can locate, nobody can challenge, and everybody treats as immutable.

Folk law looms large in the American government right now. Cascades of rigidity built from outdated interpretations of rules that were flexible to begin with, administered by people who were never asked whether any of it was working. Jennifer Pahlka, who wrote Recoding America: Why Government Is Failing in the Digital Age and How We Can Do Better, is the founder and former executive director of Code for America, and was Deputy CTO for Government Innovation in the Obama White House.

She’s working on the gap between what government is supposed to do and what it actually does. In this conversation, Robb, Josh, and Jennifer go deep on what’s actually broken and what it would take to fix it.

The folk law problem is real, but it's not the deepest one. The deeper dysfunction: government is structurally designed to be faithful to process rather than outcomes. Oversight bodies don't ask whether people got the benefit. They ask whether you followed the procedure. That incentive structure produces "rationing by friction" — where the hardest programs to navigate self-select for the people who need help least and exclude the people with the most chaotic lives, the fewest resources, and the most at stake.

Her Recoding America team is already working with states to build something Robb describes as a P&L for regulation. Not just removing rules, but assigning friction costs, finding where wet signatures are still required for no reason, and surfacing the trade-offs that have never been explicitly named. LLMs are uniquely good at this. The question isn't whether the technology can help. It's whether the political will to use it correctly can be assembled in time.

---------- Support our show by supporting our sponsors!

This episode is supported by OneReach.ai

Forged over a decade of R&D and proven in 10,000+ deployments, OneReach.ai’s GSX is the first complete AI agent runtime environment (circa 2019) — a hardened AI agent architecture for enterprise control and scale.

Backed by UC Berkeley, recognized by Gartner, and trusted across highly regulated industries, including healthcare, finance, government and telecommunications.

A complete system for accelerating AI adoption — design, train, test, deploy, monitor, and orchestrate neurosymbolic applications (agents).

Use any AI models

- Build and deploy intelligent agents fast

- Create guardrails for organizational alignment

- Enterprise-grade security and governance

Book a free demo:

https://onereach.ai/book-a-demo/?utm_source=soundcloud&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=podcast_s7e5&utm_content=1

---------- The revised and significantly updated second edition of our bestselling book about succeeding with AI agents, Age of Invisible Machines, is available everywhere: Amazon — https://bit.ly/4hwX0a5

#ai

#government

#govtech

#JenniferPahlka

#RecodingAmerica

#publicpolicy

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#doge

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#aipodcast

Most organizations are still implementing AI as point solutions, dropping new technology into existing workflows to do the same work, just slightly better. The real value lies in system solutions that completely transform how organizations operate. Avi Goldfarb, economist and co-author of Prediction Machines, joins Robb and Josh to explain why AI adoption follows predictable economic principles and why internal resistance, not technology limitations, is the primary barrier to transformation.

This conversation, recorded back in 2023, reminds us that most organizations continue to struggle with the same issues surrounding systemic change in 2026. Goldfarb's core argument: AI is fundamentally cheap prediction. Just as the internet made search and copying cheap, AI makes prediction cheap. When something becomes a commodity, the complements, the things that work alongside it, become more valuable. This includes compute power (benefiting Microsoft, Amazon, Google), unique data, and crucially, human judgment.

The problem? System solutions require organizational transformation. They create winners and losers inside companies. When AI enables insurance companies to shift from pricing risk (the domain of powerful underwriters) to reducing risk (requiring marketing and behavior change expertise), the power structure fractures. Vested interests resist.

Departments see their importance diminished. For leaders evaluating AI investments, the question isn't whether to adopt AI, it's whether you're willing to pursue system transformation and confront the organizational disruption that creates real value.

Chapters

00:00 - Intro: Avi Goldfarb on AI as “cheap prediction”

01:37 - Have LLMs changed the prediction framework?

03:36 - Do we need “new economics” for generative AI?

04:15 - What got cheaper on the internet: search, copying, communication

05:07 - What becomes more valuable as prediction gets cheap? (complements)

05:49 - OneReach.ai sponsor: runtime for AI agents (GSX)

06:46 - AI adoption inside companies: invest in people + workflows

08:13 - Unintended consequences: jobs, bias, discrimination

09:47 - The bigger question: new value creation (not just replacement)

10:33 - Upskilling: writing and opportunity expansion for millions

12:30 - "No more excuses”: using ChatGPT for clearer communication

14:50 - Social media déjà vu: noise, polarization, participation

17:04 - Intermediaries changed: self-publishing, music, podcasting

19:06 - AI commoditization: $600 models + implications for OpenAI

22:36 - Where the money is: compute, data, and complements (not predictions)---------- Support our show by supporting our sponsors!

This episode is supported by OneReach.ai

Forged over a decade of R&D and proven in 10,000+ deployments, OneReach.ai’s GSX is the first complete AI agent runtime environment (circa 2019) — a hardened AI agent architecture for enterprise control and scale.

Backed by UC Berkeley, recognized by Gartner, and trusted across highly regulated industries, including healthcare, finance, government and telecommunications.

A complete system for accelerating AI adoption - design, train, test, deploy, monitor, and orchestrate neurosymbolic applications (agents).

- Use any AI models

- Build and deploy intelligent agents fast

- Create guardrails for organizational alignment

- Enterprise-grade security and governance

Book a free demo:https://onereach.ai/book-a-demo/?utm_source=soundcloud&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=podcast_s7e4&utm_content=1

---------- The revised and significantly updated second edition of our bestselling book about succeeding with AI agents, Age of Invisible Machines, is available everywhere: Amazon — https://bit.ly/4hwX0a5

#InvisibleMachines

#Podcast

#TechPodcast

#AIPodcast

#AI

#AIStrategy

#DigitalTransformation

#AIAdoption

#FutureOfWork

#ChangeManagement

#PredictionMachines

#AILeadership

#BusinessTransformation

#AIEconomics

#EnterpriseAI