This week on Out of Interest, we’re joined by one of Australia’s most respected and fearless crime journalists - Andrew Rule.

With a career spanning over four decades, Andrew has spent his life diving deep into the world of crime, corruption, and the human stories behind headlines. He’s best known as the co-creator of the iconic Underbelly TV series, which was based on the explosive books he co-wrote with John Silvester. That series was so controversial it was banned in Victoria — and as a result, pirated DVD sales exploded in pubs and job sites across the state.

But Andrew’s work goes far beyond what you’ve seen on screen. As the host of the hugely popular podcast Life and Crimes with Andrew Rule, he takes listeners into the gritty underworld of Australia and beyond — telling stories of drug smugglers, violent killers, and the systemic failures that let them slip through the cracks.

In this episode, we unpack stories that will make your jaw drop:

The escape of David McMillan, a man who went from school science labs to becoming a globe-trotting drug smuggler. Imprisoned across multiple continents, McMillan made history by being the first Westerner to escape Thailand’s infamous Bangkok Hilton prison — using nothing but bribes and a parasol.

Andrew’s take on why people commit horrendous crimes, like the Menendez brothers — often tracing back to a history of childhood trauma.

He reflects on covering major world tragedies — from the Bali bombings, to Christchurch earthquakes, and the Japanese tsunami — and the emotional toll of bearing witness to human suffering, even if it doesn’t leave him with PTSD.

A fascinating insight into why all criminals are gamblers, willing to stake their freedom or life for a shot at getting away with it.

What it’s really like being a crime reporter: the real fear isn’t the criminals — it’s being sued by rich, powerful people who don’t want their dirty laundry aired.

Andrew also shares the golden rule of crime writing: “If you can’t prove it, don’t publish it.” He’s seen the dangers of upsetting not just gangsters, but corrupt cops, who know the system inside out and have more motive than most to silence a story.

This is an episode packed with raw truths, shocking stories, and rare access into the mind of someone who’s seen the dark side of society up close.

🎧 Listen now and discover the hidden crimes, psychological twists, and moral complexities that lie beneath the surface of everyday Australia.

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