Episode Summary

Renowned evolutionary psychologist Robin Dunbar returns for part two of his conversation with Jef Szi and the How Humans Work Podcast, diving deeper into the limits and leaps of human social patterns.

In this episode, Professor Dunbar expands on the evolutionary foundations of human relationships, moving beyond social grooming and the endorphin system to explore kinship and the deeper nature of our social lives.

He begins by examining the cost and time investment required to maintain our inner circle of intimate friends. From there, he maps out the concentric layers of more peripheral friendships and the behaviors and expectations that characterize them. Dunbar emphasizes the vital role our closest five friends play in our wellbeing and longevity.

We then explore how humans scaled up from the group sizes typical of primates to the now-famous “Dunbar’s Number” of 150. This leap—central to the Social Brain Hypothesis—reveals how brain size in primates correlates with social group size, due to the cognitive demands of managing complex, stable relationships.

Dunbar illustrates these ideas through compelling examples—courtship, language, and religion—showing how humans have creatively repurposed existing biological mechanisms to sustain cohesion in increasingly larger groups.

He also sheds light on how cultural practices like laughter, feasting, ritual, and storytelling serve to bind people together into broad, loosely connected “supergroups.”

Ultimately, Dunbar offers a concentric model of our social world, illuminating the patterns, breakthroughs, and constraints of human sociality. This conversation helps us better understand our evolutionary journey and how we might draw on both embodied emotion and cognitive insight to navigate a highly uncertain future.

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About: Robin Dunbar: Robin Dunbar is Emeritus Professor of Evolutionary Psychology at Oxford University. His work in the Experimental Psychology department at the Magdalen College is concerned with ‘trying to understand the behavioral, cognitive and neuroendocrinological mechanisms that underpin social bonding in primates (in general) and humans (in particular).’ Robin is the author of several books, including The Social Brain, Human Evolution, and Friends: Understanding the Power of Our Most Important Relationships. Professor Dunbar is known for advancing the Social Brain Hypothesis with Dunbar’s Number.

Episode #48 Takeaways

• Dunbar's number suggests humans can maintain 150 relationships.
• Time investment is key to strong friendships.
• Friendships provide emotional support during crises.
• Social interactions can be as beneficial as medical interventions.
• Volunteering can substitute for friendships in terms of social exposure.
• Cohesion in larger groups requires superficial cues and shared knowledge. Friendship layers are assessed within the first four weeks.
• Common interests determine the depth of friendships.
• Intuition plays a key role in evaluating relationships.
• Institutions help manage social cohesion and relationships.
• Shared knowledge and folklore create larger communities.
• Religion serves as a stabilizing force in communities.
• Top-down structures provide discipline, while bottom-up structures foster local identity.
• Population density poses significant future challenges.
• Humans have historically found solutions to problems.
• Optimism is essential for...

Episode Summary

The equally erudite and jovial Robin Dunbar joins Jef Szi and the How Humans Work Podcast for the first of a two part conversation about limits and leaps of social patterns in primates and humans. An Oxford University professor of evolutionary psychology and someone with a facile grasp of multiple sciences and histories, Professor Dunbar offers us a fascinating account of the social roots of human nature.

In part 1—The Chemistry of Connection—we dive deeply into the endorphin system and the how it functions to stabilize social bonds in groups. We come to see freshly how critical a role endorphins play in our day to day reality. Drawing on his rich understanding of touch, primates, and the wildly comprehensive health benefits endorphins, Dunbar illustrates the connections between chemistry, evolution, and the roots of social blueprint—translating it into the very familiar ‘raw feels’ of relationships that inform how we see, think, and feel about the world.

In particular, Robin clarifies how and why social grooming assists us in dealing with unique social stresses that accompany a group survival strategy that primate species have. Further, Robin mirthfully shows us the unique elements of the human social tool kit, which activates social glue of endorphins without the time intensive work of touch. Indeed, the social tool kit of humans relies on the beautiful elements of laughter, dancing, singing, feasting, storytelling, and rituals to foster social cohesion.

The Chemistry of Connection helps us in on our search for to understand what Social Cohesion is and how we can more successfully find it. Thank you Robin, it was a brilliant blessing to learn so much about human nature and our human story with you!

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About: Robin Dunbar: Professor Dunbar is Emeritus Professor of Evolutionary Psychology at Oxford University. His work in the Experimental Psychology department at the Magdalen College is concerned with ‘trying to understand the behavioral, cognitive and neuroendocrinological mechanisms that underpin social bonding in primates (in general) and humans (in particular).’ Robin is the author of several books, including The Social Brain, Human Evolution, and Friends: Understanding the Power of Our Most Important Relationships. Professor Dunbar is known for advancing the Social Brain Hypothesis with Dunbar’s Number.

Episode #47Takeaways

• Sociality is a key evolutionary adaptation for survival.
• Group living helps solve problems of reproduction and defense.
• Primates invest heavily in maintaining social relationships.
• Social grooming triggers the endorphin system, promoting bonding.
• Humans have developed social tools like singing and dancing to bond.
• The endorphin system acts as a natural antidepressant.
• Addiction to opiates can diminish social engagement.
• Oxytocin plays a role in mother-infant bonding and romantic relationships.
• Endorphins provide pain relief and promote feelings of well-being.
• The evolution of sociality is complex and multifaceted. Endorphins enhance social bonding and immune function.
• Quality friendships are crucial for mental and physical health.
• Five close friends are optimal for well-being.
• Social grooming is vital for maintaining relationships.

Episode Summary

The highly informed and deeply compassionate Amy Emerson joins Jef Szi and the How Humans Work Podcast for a remarkable conversation about the evolving landscape of psychedelics.

With her extensive involvement and leadership in the Multidisciplinary Association of Psychedelic Studies (MAPS)* and their multi-year effort to get MDMA approved by FDA as a therapeutic medicine for PTSD. There are few better than Amy who can speak to the state of psychedelics for medical use in society.

Not only does Amy share her honest appraisal about FDA drug approval process and members of congress on the Hill, she gives us the little known and fascinating history of MDMA. Some highlights are Sasha and Ann Shulgin’s groundbreaking contributions, the reputational damage MDMA suffered in the 90’s, the long-game efforts of Rick Doblin and others, the powerful way MDMA works on the brain, and the remarkable promise MDMA has shown to help people suffering with PTSD. Put together as a whole, Emerson offers us a destigmatized and inspiring view of MDMA beyond the common street descriptions of Ecstasy and Molly.

From MDMA and the Medical Model, Amy then helps us see the many other use-cases for psychedelics that have a long and varied history. Building on issues of trauma and the importance of spiritually reconnecting with ourselves, we walk through the psychological benefits that can come with right-use of psychedelics.

Finally, this conversation opens the visions of what future of psychedelic use in society through thoughtful contexts that track safety concerns and how, much like meditation, these ‘medicines’ can have a place in our society like Buddhist and meditation practices have entered our culture.

All in all, Breaking the Stigma is a podcast of significance, as it invites us to reconsider our biases around psychedelics at a time when our society is challenged by mental health matters like trauma and the pervasive disconnection from nature and spiritual renewal.

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About: Amy Emerson is a highly respected leader in the field of psychedelic-assisted therapy. She was Lykos Therapeutics (formerly MAPS PBC) CEO for an important period in advancing MDMA-assisted psychotherapy for post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) as a drug with the FDA

She earned a Bachelor of Science in Genetics and Cell Biology from Washington State University and spent the early career involved in roles at pharmaceutical companies, where she contributed to the development of therapies in immunology, oncology, and vaccines .​

In 2003, she began volunteering with the Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies (MAPS), assisting with clinical research monitoring. Her expertise was instrumental in establishing MAPS' clinical department and managing the MDMA Clinical Development Program. When MAPS founded its Public Benefit Corporation (MAPS PBC) in 2014 to develop and commercialize MDMA-assisted therapy, Emerson was appointed CEO .​

Under her leadership, the organization, later rebranded as Lykos Therapeutics, completed multiple Phase 2 and Phase 3 clinical trials and raised approximately $150 million in funding. The company grew to over 120 employees, all working toward the goal of obtaining FDA approval for MDMA-assisted therapy for PTSD .​

Amy resigned form her CEO role in September 2024. Currently she is a senior advisor to Lykos and an independent psychedelic research consultant, awaiting the next big adventure.

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Chapters

00:00 Introduction and Setting the Stage

02:40 The Evolution of Psychedelic Research

06:10 Understanding Stigma and Its Origins

10:54 MDMA: From Therapy to Recreation

16:33 Therapeutic Applications of MDMA

20:28 Navigating the FDA and Drug Development

24:45 Challenges