Today we’re asking: what do you do when someone you love tells you they’re leaving the Church? What do you say? How do you stay grounded and connected when the stakes feel high or you’re caught off guard?

We sat down with two longtime friends of the podcast—authors and researchers Joseph Grenny and Jeff Strong—to explore these high-stakes moments when someone is ready to talk about their shifting faith.

Drawing on research from over 500 real-life conversations about faith transitions, Joseph and Jeff uncover something both surprising and sobering: statistically, it’s devout parents and church leaders who are most likely to miss the mark in these conversations.

They suggest this isn’t about a lack of love or sincerity—but consequences of a very natural response to fear. Jeff and Joseph call it a TUI—talking under the influence. When the amygdala takes over, stress floods the system, and the thinking brain goes offline. What looks like a communication problem is actually a chemical one, and even the most well-intentioned among us can say things that damage relationships for years.

But it doesn’t have to be that way. Today, Joseph and Jeff show us how to recognize when we’re under the influence, how to pause before we cause harm, and how to come back grounded and clear—so that we can choose connection over control, curiosity over fear.

With General Conference this weekend and Easter just days away—seasons that bring families together and open the door naturally, to these conversations—we hope this episode reminds you that you’re not alone, and that these hard moments, can become the fertile ground for relationships that are deeper, more honest, and more connected than they were before.

You can also read and share an essay called "Messy Conversations: When Loved Ones Leave the Faith" by Joseph Grenny at faithmatters.org.

Listen to Sanctuary: Discovering the Temple on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, Substack, or wherever you get your podcasts.

We live in a world that prizes activity: being productive, staying in control, always doing something. So when life brings seasons of waiting—through illness, loss, or circumstances we didn’t choose—it can feel unsettling, even threatening to our sense of self. But what if those seasons are actually inviting us into a deeper understanding of God?

Today, we’re joined by Terryl Givens to explore an extraordinary book called The Stature of Waiting by W.H. Vanstone. Vanstone noticed something hiding in plain sight in the gospel accounts of the last week of Jesus’s life. Up until a certain moment, Jesus is the one acting—teaching, healing, feeding, leading. And then, almost imperceptibly, the grammar of the story shifts. He is no longer the one doing, but the one to whom things are done. He is handed over. He waits. He receives. And Vanstone suggests this isn’t a tragic turn in the story—it’s its deepest revelation.

Terryl and Fiona introduced many of us to the God who weeps in Moses 7. In Vanstone, we meet that same vulnerable God again—this time, waiting. And we ask what it means to follow that God in how we love, how we age, how we suffer, and how we let ourselves be carried.

We hope that as you move through Holy Week this year, this conversation helps see the face of God in the most vulnerable moments of the Easter story — and in your own.

Listen to Sanctuary: Discovering the Temple on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, Substack, or wherever you get your podcasts.

This version has the correct audio--thanks to those who let us know the last one wasn't right!

From time to time we like to share episodes from other shows in the Faith Matters network that we think you’ll really love, and today we’re highlighting one of our new favorites from Article 13, the podcast hosted by Zach Davis.

If you haven’t discovered it yet, Article 13 is one of the most beautifully produced things Faith Matters does. The title comes from the thirteenth Article of Faith and that really captures the spirit of seeking that you’ll experience in these episodes. These are rich, deeply researched explorations that bring together cutting-edge scholarship and spiritual wisdom to ask big questions about how we live.

In today’s episode, drawing on research from thinkers like Seth Kaplan and Pete Davis, we hear a compelling case that one of the central challenges of our time is a growing fear of commitment.

Our culture tells us that the best life is the one where we keep our options open. But the irony is that the things that make life richest—friendships, tight-knit neighborhoods, shared projects, belonging—become possible when we choose to commit to one another. Real, rooted, showing-up-again-and-again community.

Even though our tradition is built around covenant relationships, we’re living in the same cultural waters that pull toward busyness, mobility, and individualism.

This episode is both a diagnosis and an invitation. It’s full of ideas and stories that might make you want to knock on a neighbor’s door, join something local, or start something in your own community.

We hope it sends you back to your people—your neighbors, your ward, your community—with a little more fire.

And with that, here’s Article 13.

Listen to Sanctuary: Discovering the Temple on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, Substack, or wherever you get your podcasts.