Episodios

  • The Practicalities of Decarbonising the Trucking Industry – With Volvo
    Dec 3 2025
    In this episode of Exploring Clean Energy, Andy sits down with Corbin Luther, E-Mobility Solutions Specialist at Volvo Group Australia, to unpack one of the most challenging and exciting frontiers of decarbonisation: heavy vehicles. From electrical infrastructure and driver behaviour to hydrogen fuel cells and renewable diesel, Corbin provides a grounded, behind-the-scenes look at how Volvo is approaching the transition at scale. This conversation moves beyond theory into real-world fleet operations, exploring what is working, what is not, and what the next decade will really look like for Australia’s trucking industry. Show Notes & Timestamps0:00 - Welcome to Exploring Clean EnergyAndy sets the scene for today’s topic: the innovations reshaping freight, logistics, and heavy vehicles.1:05 - Introducing Today’s Guest: Corbin Luther (Volvo Group Australia)Corbin outlines Volvo’s structure globally and in Australia, including the role of Volvo Trucks and Mack Trucks in local manufacturing.3:45 - How Big is Volvo in the EV Trucking Space?Discussion of global volumes, Australian production, and the rapid rise to 117 electric trucks now on the road, with more than 50 delivered this year.6:10 - What Makes E-Mobility Technically Challenging in Australia?Corbin breaks down:The constraints of aging electrical infrastructureLong distances vs short-haul suitabilityMarket misconceptions about what electric trucks are designed forFitting technology to specific applications11:40 - Driver Behaviour: The Make-or-Break VariableHow telematics, regen braking, and driving style impact EV range, and why driver training is essential for fleets moving to electric.16:30 - From Resistance to Enthusiasm: Changing Attitudes to EV TrucksReal-world stories of sceptical drivers who change their minds within minutes of getting behind the wheel.19:30 - Charging Infrastructure: The Volvo ApproachVolvo’s advisory role, partnerships with charging companies, and why they stay out of owning physical charging hubs.23:05 - Decarbonising Heavy Transport: Electric, Hydrogen and Renewable Diesel (HVO)A detailed breakdown of:· Hydrogen fuel-cell trucks under development in EuropeHow HVO works and why it is a promising transition fuelEuropean advancements and realistic timelines for change30:50 - Fit for Purpose: Why There Is No One-Size-Fits-All SolutionHow Volvo assesses a customer’s fleet, routes, power costs and operational realities before recommending EV adoption.37:20 - The Economics: Total Cost of Ownership and the Sweet SpotWhy electricity price, kilometres travelled, and utilisation all determine whether an EV truck makes financial sense.43:00 - Behaviour Change and Second-Mover AdvantageHow sustainability pressure from customers, supply chains, and even employees is influencing fleet decisions.48:00 - Government Policy: What’s Helping and What’s NotCorbin discusses axle weight restrictions, the pace of ADR changes, and the role of ARENA-funded projects.54:10 - Road Wear, Vehicle Design and the realigning misconceptionsFindings from Volvo and Austroads showing how tyre footprint and suspension design can reduce pavement impact.58:40 - Operational Optimisation: The ‘Hidden’ Decarbonisation ToolRoute planning, idle time, fleet telematics, and the small daily decisions that reduce fuel and emissions.1:04:30 - Battery Performance, Temperature Impacts and Real-World Range ModellingHow Volvo forecasts range using topography, historic traffic data, temperature profiles and aerodynamics.1:10:10 - Looking Ahead: What the Next Decade Will BringPredictions on:- Uptake of electric trucks- Hydrogen’s likely role- Growth of HVO- How often EV trucks will be seen on Australian roads1:15:00 - Final Thoughts from CorbinWhy the transition is gaining momentum, and why fit-for-purpose solutions will be critical. Guest Bio - Corbin LutherCorbin Luther is the E-Mobility Solutions Specialist at Volvo Group Australia, where he works directly with fleets, operators, and Volvo’s dealer network to support the transition to electric trucks. With a background in transport operations and fleet management, Corbin combines technical insight with deep knowledge of real-world trucking applications, ensuring customers put the right truck on the right job and adopt EVs in a way that is operationally sound, commercially sensible, and driver-friendly. Website: volvotrucks.com.auCorbin on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/corbin-luther-2598651b7/Volvo Group LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/volvo-group/
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    46 m
  • Raising the Bar: Windlab’s Next Chapter in Renewable Energy
    Nov 12 2025
    In this episode of Exploring Clean Energy, Andy is joined by Nathan Blundell, Chief Development Officer at Windlab. Together, they explore how one of Australia’s leading renewable energy developers is raising the bar for wind and hybrid projects nationwide. They discuss Windlab’s journey from CSIRO spin-out to a fully integrated developer, the realities of project timelines and approvals, best-practice community engagement, biodiversity net gain, grid connection challenges, and two major Queensland projects set to shape the next phase of Australia’s clean-energy transition.Episode topics & timestamps00:00 - Welcome: How Windlab began, its CSIRO origins, and the evolution of wind development in Australia02:05 - The integrated model: From mapping wind to delivering and operating full-scale renewable projects05:10 - Development lifecycle: Why five to ten years is realistic and how early community engagement reduces risk08:30 - Data and bankability: From LiDAR and met masts to ensuring project certainty11:10 - Community engagement: Listening before telling, regional focus, and building trust early16:05 - Common community concerns: Managing change, benefits, and consultation fatigue19:40 - Industry reputation: Why one poor project can tarnish the whole sector. Windlab’s focus on raising the bar.22:20 - Approvals and the EPBC process: Reform, complexity, and the need for certainty26:50 - Biodiversity net gain: Practical examples from Windlab’s Gawara Baya project in North Queensland30:00 - Site selection: Wind profile, demand centres, grid constraints, and coexistence with agriculture33:15 – Technology improvements and turbine scale: 6-8MW turbines, 150m hub heights, and the limits of logistics37:10 - Construction logistics: Workforce, site access, and the legacy benefits of upgraded infrastructure40:00 - Rising costs: Global pressures, local solutions, and the power of competitive procurement44:00 - Grid innovation: Turning connection risk into advantage with in-house grid engineering48:10 - Project pipeline: Gawara Baya and Bungaban projects —Queensland’s next major renewable builds52:00 - Policy reform: Implementing EPBC changes and “finding a way to do the good things that we must do”55:00 - The decade ahead: Delivery, scale, and getting match-fit for the 2030s57:30 - Follow Windlab: Staying informed via LinkedIn, project websites, and newslettersGuest bioNathan Blundell is the Chief Development Officer at Windlab, leading a $30 billion portfolio and 20 GW development pipeline across Australia. Since joining in 2021, Nathan has overseen some of the nation’s most significant renewable energy projects, including the North Queensland Super Hub, Bungaban Wind, which secured Australia’s largest renewable PPA and Gawara Baya, the first project in the country designed around a biodiversity net-gain strategy. With over 20 years in the global energy sector, Nathan brings deep industry insight and a strong commitment to doing renewables the right way - delivering projects that respect Country, support communities, and protect the planet.LinksWindlab: windlab.comNathan Blundell (LinkedIn): linkedin.com/in/nathan-blundell-b1601142Windlab (LinkedIn): linkedin.com/company/windlab
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    35 m
  • Green Methanol - the emergence of a new Australian industry with ABEL Energy.
    Oct 23 2025

    In this episode of Exploring Clean Energy, Andy is joined by Michael van Baarle, Executive Chairman & Co-founder of ABEL Energy. Together they unpack green methanol’s role in decarbonising heavy transport, covering the Bell Bay project, sustainable carbon sourcing, hydrogen, electrolyser choices, shipping demand and bunkering, project scale-up, and the policy and investment steps on the road to 2029/30.

    Episode topics & timestamps
    00:00 - Welcome: Why methanol belongs in the clean-fuels toolkit; episode overview.
    02:10 - Methanol 101: CH₃OH, its uses, and why being a liquid matters for storage, handling, and retrofits.
    06:05 - Shipping’s 3% problem: Clean combustion benefits, particularly near ports; the path from emissions control zones to green fuels.
    10:00 - Carbon sources at scale: Biomass today, atmospheric CO₂ tomorrow—and the sustainability guardrails.
    14:25 - Bell Bay “stack” of advantages: Green grid, plantation residues, deep-water berth, workforce, and power connection.
    18:40 - Project scale: Why ABEL Energy sized Bell Bay to ~360,000 tpa—and how scale drives cost down.
    23:15 - Global demand signals: New methanol-capable ships, bunkering hubs like Singapore, and meeting EU maritime rules.
    28:05 - Technology choices: Bankability of tech, electrolyser selection, gasification.
    33:20 - Water & utilities: Cooling vs. electrolysis demand; options for sourcing and treatment on site.
    36:10 - Townsville pathway: “Reverse battery” flexibility, partnering with renewables, and behind-the-meter models.
    41:00 - Policy & economics: Hydrogen production incentives, timelines to FID/operations, and why timing matters.
    46:00 - Road to 2029/30: Funding, FEED readiness, and de-risking first-of-a-kind at Australian scale.
    50:15 - What’s next: How listeners can follow ABEL Energy and help champion a new export industry.

    Guest bio
    Michael van Baarle is the Executive Chairman & Co-founder of ABEL Energy, an Australian industrial project developer focused on producing green methanol using green hydrogen and sustainable carbon sources. With nearly two decades across energy and infrastructure in Australia and the U.S., including methanol and DME, Michael co-founded ABEL Energy to catalyse a domestic green-methanol industry and position Australia as a regional supplier for clean shipping fuels and low-carbon chemicals.

    Links
    ABEL Energy: abelenergy.com.au
    Michael van Baarle (LinkedIn): linkedin.com/in/michael-van-baarle-21994022/
    ABEL Energy (LinkedIn): linkedin.com/company/abelenergy/

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    45 m
  • Decarbonising Aerospace; Considerations about Hydrogen, SAF…and autonomous electric air taxis! With Boeing
    Oct 9 2025

    In this episode of Exploring Clean Energy, Andy is joined by Hannah Monaghan, Boeing’s Australia Lead for Sustainability Reporting & Governance. Together they unpack aviation’s decarbonisation pathway, discussing everything from Hydrogen, SAF, Electric flight, aircraft design and operational efficiencies.

    Hannah’s Highlights:

    1:05 - Boeing in Australia & NZ: 98+ years, ~4,500 people, Melbourne composites, RAAF sustainment
    3:50 - Why decarbonise aviation: ~2% of emissions today, APAC demand set to grow
    6:15 - Boeing’s pillars: fleet renewal, advanced tech, operational efficiency, renewable energy, market measures
    9:40 - Aircraft lifecycles (30–40 yrs) and retrofits: winglets, 787 curved wings, 777X folding tips
    13:20 - Certification reality: safety testing - why it takes time
    15:30 - Ops efficiency wins: smarter arrivals, single-engine taxi, collaboration with airports & ATC
    18:10 – Carbon offsets to removals: CORSIA basics, first ocean-based removals MOU; green hydrogen by-product
    21:05 - SAF 101: drop-in fuel, HEFA pathway, feedstocks (UCO, ag residues, MSW)
    24:30 - Where SAF is today: blends to 50% certified across Boeing fleet; pathway to 100%
    27:10 - Supply, policy & refineries: keeping feedstock onshore; AU & NZ outlooks
    31:00 - Turnarounds & infrastructure: why SAF fits current refuelling ops; blending mandates
    33:40 - Electric & hydrogen: use-cases, grid “greenness”, long-haul constraints for Australia
    38:10 - Cascade 2.0: open modelling to test SAF, hydrogen, electric and grid scenarios
    41:20 - Materials & circularity: composites, cabin “one-percenters” (lightweight recycled carpets)
    44:30 - Barriers & opportunities: stackable incentives, global harmonisation, jobs & fuel security
    48:10 - Final take: now is the moment - coordination across industry, government and communities


    About Hannah

    Hannah Monaghan is the Australia Lead for Sustainability Reporting & Governance within Boeing’s Global Enterprise Sustainability team (since Jan 2024). She joined Boeing in 2022 in Government Affairs after roles advising Australia’s Federal Minister for the Environment and the NSW Minister for Family & Community Services. An organic chemist by training, Hannah holds a Bachelor of Medicinal Chemistry from UTS.

    Connect with Hannah - https://www.linkedin.com/in/hannah-monaghan-392249133/

    Links

    • Boeing - https://www.boeing.com/
    • Boeing on Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/boeing/
    • Boeing on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/company/boeing/
    • Cascade (aviation decarbonisation modelling) - https://cascade.boeing.com/
    • Australia Aviation Outlook (Cascade) - https://cascade.boeing.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/03/Australia-Aviation-Outlook.pdf
    • Boeing Hydrogen Factsheet - https://www.boeing.com/content/dam/boeing/boeingdotcom/principles/sustainability/assets/pdf/Hydrogen_Factsheet.pdf
    • CSIRO–Boeing SAF Roadmap (2023) - https://www.boeing.com.au/news/2023/csiro-boeing-roadmap-charts-flight-path-to-sustainable-skies
    • SAF State of Play (2024 update) - https://www.boeing.com.au/content/dam/boeing/en-au/pdf/boeing-and-csiro-saf-state-of-play-report-2024.pdf
    • Wisk (autonomous electric air taxi) - https://wisk.aero/

    Produced by The Podcast Boss

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    38 m
  • Gold Rush: Australia's Clean Energy Underground. With Gold Hydrogen
    Jul 28 2025

    Episode Overview

    In this episode, Andy Marsland sits down with Neil McDonald, CEO of Gold Hydrogen, to unpack an exciting investment announcement and explore the future of natural hydrogen and helium in Australia. From historical discoveries that have led to cutting-edge drilling programs, this conversation dives deep into the potential of hydrogen as a clean, cost-effective energy source, and how helium (including the rare helium-3) could revolutionise industries from quantum computing to power generation and transportation.


    Neil McDonald is co-founder and Managing Director of Gold Hydrogen, one of the first companies in the world to confirm that high natural hydrogen deposits exist underground. Gold Hydrogen is now leading the race to commercialise hydrogen, a near carbon-zero energy source which would impact worldwide zero emissions targets.

    Gold Hydrogen is also progressing helium opportunities, as the hydrogen tests also produced strong helium showings, one of the first major finds in a non-petroleum area.

    Neil has more than 20 years of extensive commercial experience in the energy and minerals sectors and has helped commercialise some of Australia’s largest exploration projects for private and public companies.

    What You’ll Learn

    • The origins of Gold Hydrogen and its pioneering work in natural hydrogen exploration
    • Why South Australia’s geology is uniquely suited for hydrogen and helium extraction
    • The significance of helium-3 and its astronomical value
    • How natural hydrogen compares to green hydrogen in terms of cost, carbon footprint, and scalability
    • Insights into Gold Hydrogen’s strategic partnerships with Toyota Motor Corporation, Mitsubishi Gas Chemical and ENEOS Xplora
    • The roadmap to commercial production and the role of infrastructure in scaling operations

    Key Takeaways

    • Natural hydrogen could be produced for under $1/kg, making it significantly cheaper than manmade alternatives
    • Gold Hydrogen has confirmed helium purity levels of 36.9%, the highest ever reported globally
    • Helium-3, valued at $15 million/kg, has been found in elevated levels in their wells
    • The company’s exploration acreage spans 78,000+ square kilometres, with potentially enough hydrogen to power South Australia for 40+ years

    Resources & Links

    • www.goldhydrogen.com.au
    • Gold Hydrogen Investor Hub
    • Gold Hydrogen on LinkedIn
    • Press Release: Strategic Investment Announcement

    If you’re as excited about the future of clean energy as we are, don’t forget to subscribe, share, and leave a review. For more information or to connect with Gold Hydrogen, check out the links above.

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    34 m
  • A pragmatic approach to Hydrogen scale-up. With Warradarge Energy
    Jul 14 2025
    Discussions of Green Iron, Green Ammonia and Dual-fuel heavy transportStephen Archer: Stephen Archer is the CEO of Warradarge Energy, a company leading the development of renewable hydrogen projects in Western Australia. Warradarge’s portfolio of projects covers diesel displacement, green iron, and green ammonia offtake markets. The company focuses on strong renewable resources and addressable offtake markets as a strategic focus. Stephen has spent over a decade in renewable energy and hydrogen project development, financing and execution. Most recently serving as WA State Manager for BP’s renewable energy division – where he developed over 2.6GW of grid-connected Solar, Wind and Battery projects, including Australia’s largest single-stage solar farm, and the renewable generation assets attached to some of the largest green hydrogen projects currently in development. Episode SummaryIn this episode, Andy Marsland speaks with Stephen Archer, CEO of Warradarge Energy, about the company’s innovative approach to renewable hydrogen projects in Western Australia. They explore Warradarge’s three major initiatives: green hydrogen production, dual-fuel trucking technology, and green iron manufacturing. The conversation highlights the importance of pragmatic, scalable solutions in Australia’s energy transition.­­­Topics & Highlights1. Warradarge’s Mission and StrategyDeveloper of hydrogen projects in WA’s Midwest region.Focus on upstream and downstream market alignment.Three active projects: hydrogen production, dual-fuel logistics, and green iron.2. Green Hydrogen Production25 MW electrolyzer connected behind-the-meter to a 300 MW wind farm.Utilizes curtailed energy for hydrogen production.Targeting diesel displacement with identified offtake customers.3. Dual-Fuel Trucking TechnologyPartnership with Newhaul and Fenix Resources.Retrofitting trucks to blend hydrogen into diesel intake.30–40% diesel displacement; scalable and reversible.Technology developed by HW Richardson in New Zealand.4. Green Iron InitiativeCo-development of a 750–1000 MW hydrogen project for green iron production.Collaboration with Athena and Fenix Resources.Briquetting magnetite concentrate using renewable energy and hydrogen.Potential to offset ~4 million tonnes of CO₂ annually.5. Challenges and Policy NeedsDemand-side policy gaps and international collaboration hurdles.Hydrogen’s role as a “Swiss Army knife” – versatile but not universal.Importance of realism and pragmatism in project development.6. Future OutlookStage 1 construction planned for 2026.Stage 2 (green iron) targeted for 2030.Stage 3 (green ammonia export) in early development.Notable Quotes“Every achievement worth talking about was declared impossible before it was done.” – Stephen Archer “Hydrogen will assist, not replace everything.” – Stephen ArcherLinks:https://warradarge.com.au/https://www.linkedin.com/company/warradarge-energy/https://www.linkedin.com/in/stephen-archer/
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    38 m
  • How to Produce Green Ammonia for Under US$300 Per Tonne – with Element One
    Apr 22 2025
    How to Produce Green Ammonia for under US$300 per tonne – With Element One Overview: In this episode, Andy Marsland explores the latest advancements in hydrogen and ammonia technologies with Phil Matthews and Troy Philpot. They discuss the potential of hydrogen and ammonia in the green energy sector, focusing on their commercial viability, practical applications, and the innovative technologies developed by Element One which are a potential game changer for the industry. Guests: Phil Matthews - Managing Director of Element One· Phil is the Managing Director at Element One, where he has dedicated over a decade to advancing the green energy sector. With a specialised focus on hydrogen derivatives, Phil has driven significant research and development initiatives aimed at enhancing renewable energy applications. Phil's academic foundation in Environmental Science and Sustainable Energy Management underpins his commitment to creating sustainable energy solutions for the future. His notable technological contributions include the development of Kraktek, an innovative ammonia reformer and hydrogen purification technology, as well as Ammoniac, a cutting-edge solution for renewable ammonia synthesis.Troy Philpot - Director of Origination at BE Power Group and consultant to Element One· Troy is the Director – Origination for the BE Power group of companies. BE Power have over 18GWh of pumped hydro and energy storage projects, totalling around $6B in construction value, under development across Australia. He has over a decade of experience in high voltage electrical infrastructure, services and energy transition projects, with the commercial arm of Energy Queensland, as well as a background in commercial strategy, marketing and business development. Troy supports the Element One team, with insights into commercial viability, potential industry partnerships and helps drive innovation opportunities.Key Topics:1. Introduction to Element One:· Phil Matthews introduces Element One, highlighting its focus on hydrogen carriers and the development of innovative technologies, Kraktek and Ammoniac.· The company's mission is to revolutionise hydrogen storage and transportation.2. Hydrogen Carriers and Transportation:· Discussion on the inefficiencies of current hydrogen storage and transportation methods.· Comparison between liquid hydrogen, compressed hydrogen, and ammonia as hydrogen carriers.· Phil's views on the volumetric energy density of hydrogen and the advantages of ammonia.3. Ammonia as a Hydrogen Carrier:· Benefits of using ammonia for hydrogen storage and transportation include existing infrastructure and higher energy density.· Comparison of ammonia tankers with liquid hydrogen ships in terms of practicality and energy efficiency.4. Innovative Technologies:· Introduction to Kraktek, an ammonia reformer.· The efficiency and purity of hydrogen produced using Crack Tech achieve 99.9999% purity.· Development of ammonium hydroxide as a safer alternative for hydrogen storage and transportation.5. Commercial Viability:· Troy Philpot discusses the economic advantages of Element One's technologies, emphasising cost-effectiveness and green credentials.· Discussion of how to produce green ammonia for under USD300 per tonne. · The potential for ammonia to be a cheaper and greener alternative to traditional hydrocarbons.6. Safety and Practicality:· Addressing the toxicity of ammonia and how Element One's solutions mitigate these concerns.· The development of ammonium hydroxide as a safer, room-temperature liquid for hydrogen storage and transportation.7. Future Prospects:· Potential applications of these technologies in various industries, including transportation, mining, and agriculture.· The importance of industry partnerships and the role of universities in advancing these technologies.· The challenges of gaining acceptance and the need for first movers to adopt these technologies.8. Current Challenges:· There are difficulties in proving the technology and gaining wider acceptance.· There is a need for industry players with deeper pockets to adopt and scale these technologies.· The potential for overseas adoption before widespread use in Australia. Conclusion: Andy, Phil, and Troy wrap up the episode by highlighting the transformative potential of ammonia technologies in achieving a sustainable energy future. They emphasise the need for continued innovation and collaboration to overcome current challenges and make these technologies commercially viable. Call to Action:· Subscribe to the "Exploring Hydrogen" podcast for more insights into the hydrogen energy sector.· Follow ...
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    50 m
  • The State of Hydrogen – current opportunities and challenges. A perspective from the forefront of hydrogen research and development – With Central Queensland University
    Apr 4 2025

    The State of Hydrogen – current opportunities and challenges. A perspective from the forefront of hydrogen research and development – With Central Queensland University

    Episode Summary: In this episode, Andy Marsland welcomes Paul Hodgson to discuss the advancements, opportunities, and challenges in the hydrogen energy sector. Paul shares his extensive experience and insights into the role of hydrogen in decarbonising Australia and the world, focusing on its applications in transportation, industry, and society.

    Paul Hodgson is Executive Director Regional Futures – Energy Transitions, and Director of the Centre for Hydrogen and Renewable Energy at CQUniversity Australia. He is also Chair of Queensland Manufacturing Institute and Vice Chair of the Hydrogen Flight Alliance.

    Prior to joining CQUniversity earlier last year, Paul was Interim CEO of a bid for a Scaling Green Hydrogen Cooperative Research Centre, developing a 10-year $213m research and training program with the support of 97 partners from 12 countries. Between 2017 and 2021, Paul was General Manager Innovation and Stakeholder Engagement (East Coast) for the Australian energy industry growth centre, NERA, where he led the development of a national network of regional hydrogen technology clusters.

    Key Topics Discussed:

    1. Paul Hodgson's Background:
      • Roles at CQUniversity, Queensland Manufacturing Institute, and Hydrogen Flight Alliance.
      • Passion for regional development and sustainable energy.
    2. Hydrogen's Role in Decarbonisation:
      • Hydrogen as a tool for hard-to-abate sectors.
      • Importance of decarbonising existing hydrogen production.
    3. Current State of Hydrogen Projects:
      • Federal funding for low carbon liquid fuels.
      • Challenges and opportunities in the hydrogen sector.
      • The need for fewer, more collaborative projects.
    4. Hydrogen in Industry:
      • Applications in ammonia production, steel industry, and refining fuels.
      • Potential for hydrogen to replace LNG and coal exports.
    5. Challenges and Future Directions:
      • Importance of foundational work in safety, regulations, and community engagement.
      • The role of government and industry collaboration.
      • The need for a strong foundation to support commercial viability.
    6. Research and Innovation at CQUniversity:
      • Focus on reducing hydrogen production costs.
      • Projects on raw water electrolysis and utilising excess solar energy.
      • Collaboration with international partners and other universities.
    7. Global Hydrogen Landscape:
      • Australia's position and potential in the global hydrogen market.
      • Comparison with other countries' progress in hydrogen development.

    Notable Quotes:

    • "Hydrogen is now being seen much more sensibly as a tool in a toolkit for things that are hard to abate."
    • "The world will do this with or without Australia. There are lots of competitors out there."

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    31 m