Kathy Hagler and Robin Graham return to explore the “ME” in their ABCs of Murmuration framework—where awareness, beliefs, and connection lay the foundation for leaderful collaboration.

In this episode of the Engaged By Design Podcast, Dr. Vernon Smith and Dr. Michael Cottam welcome back Dr. Kathy Hagler and Robin Graham, authors of The ABCs of Murmuration.

They unpack the “ME” in their leadership framework—showing how awareness, beliefs, and connection create the foundation for authentic collaboration.

Kathy and Robin share powerful metaphors about starlings, symphonies, and marching bands, as well as the story of Mozart’s Starling.

Robin also shares a moving personal reflection from Durango, illustrating how awareness and connection transform grief into leadership presence.

Key Topics

• Why leadership begins with “ME” before “WE” or “US”
• The ABCs of ME: Awareness, Beliefs, Connection
• Lessons from starlings, symphonies, and marching bands
• Robin’s Durango story: grief, awareness, and connection
• The dance steps of leaderful collaboration: step up, step back, step together
• The ABCs of Murmuration (available on Amazon)
• Manifesting Murmuration Workshop — ABCsOfMurmuration.com
• Viktor Frankl, Man’s Search for Meaning (inspiration on choice and awareness)

Reflection Question

Here is your reflection question for this week:

What small step can you take today to connect more authentically with yourself and others?

Call to Action

👉 Visit EngagedByDesign.com to learn more, explore coaching opportunities, and download resources from MACRO Leadership.

💬 Comment on the YouTube episode, share your reflection, and subscribe for more leadership insights.

In Part Two of their conversation with Dr. Guieswende Rouamba, Michael and Vernon explore how storytelling brings project management to life.

Guieswende introduces us to Bob and George — two characters who illustrate resilience, resistance, and the power of leading without a title. Together, they discuss how story helps us make meaning, navigate change, and see ourselves in the leadership journey.

A must-listen for instructional designers, educators, and anyone who leads from the middle.

Highlights:

• Why Guieswende wrote the second half of his book as a story.
• Lessons from Bob and George on leadership and resistance.
• Why resistance is normal in change management.
• How to lead without authority.
• The role of empathy and storytelling in building trust.
• How project management principles translate into everyday leadership.

Resources Mentioned:

• The Instructional Designer’s Guide to Project Management by Dr. Guieswende Rouamba
• MACRO Leadership by Dr. Michael Cottam
• EngagedByDesign.com – Free MACRO Leadership Workbook

In this episode, Dr. Vernon Smith and Dr. Michael Cottam talk with Dr. Guieswende Rouamba, learning designer at the University of Illinois Urbana-Champaign and author of The Instructional Designer’s Guide to Project Management.

Guieswende shares how project management helps instructional designers navigate complex collaborations and reduce burnout. He introduces his “Three Ps” — People, Process, and Pedagogy — and explains why relationships are at the heart of every successful project.

Whether you lead design teams, teach online, or manage academic innovation, this conversation will remind you that the key to great outcomes starts with great people.

Highlights:

• Guieswende’s journey from Burkina Faso to Illinois.
• How project management skills elevate instructional design.
• The “domain dispute” between faculty and designers — and how empathy resolves it.
• The Three Ps framework: People, Process, and Pedagogy.
• Positive psychology in project management.
• How project management helps instructional designers prevent burnout.

Resources Mentioned:

• The Instructional Designer’s Guide to Project Management by Dr. Guieswende Rouamba
• MACRO Leadership by Dr. Michael Cottam
• EngagedByDesign.com – Free leadership tools and downloads