Episodios

  • 353 – Grooming in Trusted Spaces: A Conversation with Dr. Beth Lorance
    Sep 1 2025
    Dr. Beth Lorance joins Dr. Sandie Morgan as they discover how a high school coach gave one of his players expensive gifts, things her mother had refused to buy, with the mom posting online asking what to do, not realizing she was witnessing grooming behavior that creates the same vulnerabilities traffickers exploit in trusted spaces throughout our communities. Dr. Beth Lorance Dr. Beth Lorance is an adjunct professor at Vanguard University, where she teaches Family Violence and has also taught Introduction to Psychology and Psychology of the Family. She earned her PsyD in Clinical Psychology and previously served as the director of Vanguard's counseling center. In addition to her academic background, Beth is a licensed minister with the Assemblies of God, which allows her to bring both psychological expertise and theological insight into conversations about abuse, trauma, and healing. Her passion is deeply personal, rooted in her own family history of child sexual abuse, and she is committed to equipping others to use their voices to prevent abuse, protect the vulnerable, and walk alongside survivors. Beth also works to bring awareness into the church, encouraging faith communities to reflect Jesus' response to victims and to take seriously the call to protect those who are most vulnerable. Key Points Family violence creates deep vulnerabilities by teaching children harmful lessons that love is transactional, they're not enough, and there's something wrong with them that they can't overcome - wounds that become embedded in their brain chemistry when trauma happens at a young age. Traffickers don't create vulnerabilities but rather exploit existing wounds from family abuse, stepping into unmet needs and exploiting lessons already learned about intimacy being tied to exploitation. Statistics reveal that 90% of abusers are known to their victims with only 10% being strangers, and 31% of traffickers are actually family members of the victim, making "stranger danger" education insufficient. Grooming is a process of control and manipulation that builds trust, chips away boundaries, and creates dependency so victims willingly comply when lines are crossed into inappropriate behavior because they've been normalized to the perpetrator's actions. Training is essential for leaders, staff, pastors, volunteers, and teachers to recognize grooming signs like expensive gift-giving, requests for secrecy, and isolating language such as "your parents don't understand you, but I do." Clear boundaries and policies are crucial, including no one-on-one supervision between adults and children, with swift consequences when policies aren't followed to prevent grooming opportunities. Children need to be empowered to say no even to trusted adults, with parents and leaders respecting their boundaries and teaching them about "tricky people" rather than just strangers. Trauma-informed communities must stop asking "what's wrong with you?" and instead listen without judgment, sitting with broken people without requiring them to change or behave in prescribed ways to receive care. Parents should be vigilant about adults in their children's lives, knowing what interactions look like and requiring that any adult who wants to be friends with their child must be friends with the parent first. Breaking the cycle requires communities that believe victims, provide someone to stand up for those who can't yet stand up for themselves, and create new family structures when biological families fail to protect. Resources 204 – Is Your Organization Trauma Informed and Why Should It Be? 124 – Prevention: Trauma Informed and Transformational Schools Transcript [00:00:00] Sandie Morgan: Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast here at Vanguard University's Global Center for Women and Justice in Orange County, California. I'm Dr. Sandy Morgan, and this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice,
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    35 m
  • 352 – Empowering Change: Holding Hotels Accountable for Trafficking
    Aug 18 2025
    Patrick McDonough joins Dr. Sandie Morgan to discuss his groundbreaking $40 million jury verdict against a hotel for enabling child sex trafficking and how this landmark case is changing accountability standards across the hospitality industry. Patrick McDonough Patrick J. McDonough is a nationally recognized attorney and advocate who leads the Sex Trafficking Division at Andersen, Tate & Carr. With a legal career marked by justice-driven leadership and deep community engagement, Pat has dedicated his life to representing survivors of sex trafficking and fighting systemic injustice. Before joining Andersen, Tate & Carr, Pat made history as the youngest District Attorney in the state of Georgia, where he pioneered the development of child advocacy centers, providing trauma-informed care and legal support to child victims of sexual abuse. In his legal practice, Pat has built a comprehensive, survivor-centered approach to litigation, assembling a national network of professionals to support clients from first contact through final judgment. His efforts have earned widespread recognition, being featured in The New York Times, The Washington Post, Sports Illustrated, Forbes, and the Atlanta Journal-Constitution. Outside the courtroom, Pat has raised over $1 million to support unhoused individuals and founded HomeFirst Gwinnett and the Gwinnett Reentry Intervention Program (GRIP). Key Points McDonough won a historic $40 million jury verdict in July 2025 against United Inn & Suites in Decatur, Georgia, marking one of the first TVPRA cases against a hotel to reach trial and verdict. The case involved a 16-year-old victim who was trafficked over 200 times in just 40 days, with hotel staff selling her condoms and ignoring obvious signs of trafficking. The verdict included $10 million in compensatory damages to make the victim whole and $30 million in punitive damages designed to send a message to the entire hospitality industry. Hotels cannot claim ignorance when red flags are obvious—if staff see what appears to be prostitution, they should call law enforcement regardless of whether they can definitively identify it as trafficking. Clear warning signs include high foot traffic with men going in and out of rooms every 20-30 minutes, scantily clad young women, large numbers of used condoms found during cleaning, and luxury cars visiting budget hotels. Hotel staff empowerment comes from the top—management must train employees and create a culture where staff are encouraged to report suspicious activity rather than just "rent rooms and make money." Simple staff training on recognizing red flags and proper reporting procedures can prevent hotels from becoming trafficking hotspots and protect them from legal liability. McDonough has settled over 80 similar cases, but this verdict was particularly significant because the hotel refused reasonable settlement offers and chose to go to trial. Community members play a vital role in prevention by reporting unusual traffic patterns and suspicious activity to law enforcement, as it truly "takes a village" to combat trafficking. Resources Patrick McDonough at Andersen, Tate & Carr EHT187 – Why Is Labor Trafficking So Hard To Find? Transcript [00:00:00] Sandie Morgan: Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast here at Vanguard University's Global Center for Women and Justice in Orange County, California. I'm Dr. Sandy Morgan, and this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Today I'm joined by attorney Patrick McDonough, partner at Anderson, Tate and Carr, and he leads their sex trafficking division. [00:00:35] Pat just won a $40 million jury verdict that sending shockwaves through the hotel industry. His 16-year-old client had been trafficked over 200 times in just 40 days while staff sold her condoms and ignored obvious signs.
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    30 m
  • 351 – Hidden Crimes: Fraud and its Impact on Vulnerable Communities
    Aug 4 2025
    Debbie Deem joins Dr. Sandie Morgan to discuss how transnational fraud predators are stealing billions from older adults and the intersection between financial crimes and human trafficking. Debbie Deem Debbie Deem is a retired FBI victim specialist with over 40 years of experience serving crime victims. She's currently an elder justice victim advocate, specializing in transnational fraud crimes and she serves as co-facilitator for the National Adult Protective Services Association Fraud Forum. She helped start the Victim Assistance Programs at the US Attorney's Office in both San Francisco and Los Angeles, where in the early to mid-1990s she discovered what we now call human trafficking victims and was assisting those victims while also working with financial crime victims. After moving to the FBI in 2003, she began focusing on older victims of lottery, sweepstakes, and romance frauds, gravitating toward the most underserved victims throughout her career. Key Points Financial fraud against older adults is now the most common crime happening around the world, with $4.9 billion reported stolen from Americans 60 and older in 2024 alone, representing a 33% increase from the previous year. The Federal Trade Commission estimates that close to $160 billion per year is stolen from all Americans due to fraud crimes, making this a massive underreported crisis. Language matters when discussing fraud victims - using terms like "defrauded" instead of "scammed" helps maintain victim dignity and reduces blame, similar to how language evolved in human trafficking advocacy. Common fraud types include romance frauds using stolen military or celebrity images, crypto investment frauds starting with innocent text messages, lottery/sweepstakes frauds, tech support impersonations, and phantom hacking where criminals impersonate bank security. Victims experience trauma bonds and love bombing similar to human trafficking victims, making it extremely difficult to recognize they're being manipulated even when red flags are present. The neuroscience behind financial fraud shows that brain chemistry and excitement responses make these relationships feel authentic to victims, requiring neuropsychologists and medical professionals to help explain what's happening. System failures are widespread - in one case study, a victim lost $380,000 but police didn't respond, banks didn't file required Adult Protective Services reports, and victim services provided no meaningful support. Crypto ATMs have become "fraud machines" found in gas stations and small stores, though California now limits transactions to $1,000 per day, causing criminals to evolve to using couriers and other methods. Prevention strategies include not answering unknown phone calls, getting scam warning apps, sharing personal fraud experiences with family members rather than lecturing, and establishing trusted contacts on all financial accounts. Revictimization occurs through recovery scams where criminals impersonate law enforcement agencies claiming they can help recover stolen funds, and through tax obligations on money withdrawn from retirement accounts even when it was stolen. The crime creates long-term devastation including bankruptcy, homelessness, suicide ideation, and forcing elderly victims back into the workforce after losing life savings. This field is where human trafficking advocacy was 20 years ago - needing widespread recognition, proper terminology, victim services, and systemic responses to address the crisis effectively. Resources Debbie deem Neuroscience Behind Financial Scams: A DOJ elder initiative Internet Crime Complaint Center - ic3.gov National Elder Fraud Hotline Transcript [00:00:00] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast here at Vanguard University's Global Center for Women and Justice in Orange County, California. I'm Dr. Sandy Morgan, and this is the show where we empower you to study the issu...
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    37 m
  • 350 – The Intersection of Immigration Policy and Human Trafficking
    Jul 21 2025
    Matthew Soerens joins Dr. Sandie Morgan to discuss the intersection of immigration policy and human trafficking, exploring how vulnerable immigration status increases the risk of exploitation and trafficking. Matthew Soerens Matthew Soerens is vice President of Advocacy and Policy at World Relief. He has dedicated his career to responding to the needs of immigrants and refugees through a biblical lens of justice and compassion. He also serves as national coordinator for the Evangelical Immigration table, and he co-authored Seeking Refuge on the shores of the Global Refugee Crisis. Key Points Human trafficking involves people forced to work under fraud or coercion, while smuggling refers to bringing someone across a border unlawfully - these terms are often conflated but represent different crimes that can sometimes overlap. Migrants, refugees, and asylum seekers are particularly vulnerable to trafficking because they're in unfamiliar cultural settings where they don't know the rules, their rights, or the laws, making them less likely to report exploitation. Current immigration enforcement approaches that create widespread fear in immigrant communities can inadvertently increase trafficking vulnerability by making people afraid to report crimes or seek help from law enforcement. California Republican legislators recently wrote a letter asking for more discernment in immigration enforcement, focusing on those convicted of violent crimes rather than broad sweeps that detain people who haven't committed crimes. The U.S. immigration system's complexity rivals tax law, with at least 18 different visa types, making it difficult for immigrants to understand their legal status, especially when policies change rapidly. Recent policy changes have left many Afghans, Haitians, and Venezuelans without legal status overnight, despite having previously worked lawfully with valid documentation. Employers who fail to file necessary visa extensions can create situations where workers become vulnerable to labor trafficking through coercion and threats of deportation. The lack of immigrant visa pathways for non-highly skilled workers forces many into temporary status or unauthorized situations, creating dependency on employers that can lead to exploitation. Unaccompanied children are among the most vulnerable to human trafficking, and recent legislation may undermine important protections established by the Trafficking Victims Protection Act. Churches and community organizations can play a vital role by building relationships with immigrants, providing practical support, and advocating for policies that recognize human dignity while affirming the rule of law. Biblical principles call for special concern for "the orphan, the widow, and the foreigner" - groups that remain vulnerable to trafficking today both in the U.S. and globally. Effective anti-trafficking work requires understanding the connection between immigration vulnerability and trafficking risk, as many trafficking victims are immigrants who lack legal protections. Resources World Relief 294 – Combatting Exploitative Child Labor in the U.S., with Matthew Soerens Inalienable: How Marginalized Kingdom Voices Can Help Save the American Church by Matthew Soerens Welcoming the Stranger by Matthew Soerens Transcript [00:00:03] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast, brought to you by Vanguard University's Global Center for Women and Justice in Orange County, California. This is episode number 350. I am Dr. Sandie Morgan, and this is a show where we help you study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. [00:00:29] Today we are joined by Matthew Sorens, vice President of Advocacy and Policy at World Relief. He has dedicated his career to responding to the needs of immigrants and refugees through a. Biblical lens of justice and compassion. He also serves as national coordinator for the ...
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    34 m
  • 349: Legislative Reform in the Fight Against Online Exploitation
    Jul 7 2025
    Eleanor Kennelly Gaetan joins Dr. Sandie Morgan to discuss the critical need for legislative reform to combat online sexual exploitation, focusing on Section 230 immunity and emerging laws like the Take It Down Act. Eleanor Kennelly Gaetan Eleanor Kennelly Gaetan is director of public policy at the National Center on Sexual Exploitation in Washington DC. She has been an advocate for stronger laws to fight sexual exploitation and has had a role in passing key anti-trafficking laws like the Justice for Victims of Trafficking Act and SESTA-FOSTA, which changed Section 230 to hold tech platforms more accountable for their role in enabling sex trafficking. Key Points Human trafficking was only identified as a crime in the year 2000 with the passage of the Trafficking Victims Protection Act, making it a relatively new field where small movements have achieved significant progress. Eleanor witnessed firsthand in Romania how young women were lured abroad with false promises of legitimate work, only to be trafficked into commercial sexual exploitation, highlighting the critical need for proper victim services rather than detention centers. The Take It Down Act represents a crucial breakthrough by criminalizing the uploading of non-consensual sexually explicit material for the first time and requiring platforms to provide real human help desks for removal requests within 48 hours. Image-based sexual abuse creates ongoing trauma for victims because unlike other trafficking incidents that end, having images online means "you're being raped and it's online and you can't get it down," creating continuous retraumatization. Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, passed in 1996 when the internet was nascent, provides broad immunity to internet service providers and has been interpreted by courts as creating a "wall of immunity" for social media platforms. The case against Twitter involving 13-year-old boys demonstrates how platforms monetize child exploitation material through advertising revenue while claiming Section 230 immunity protects them from liability. California's Age Appropriate Design Code represents one approach to reform by requiring companies to test products for age appropriateness before launch, using product liability law to sidestep Section 230 immunity issues. Meta tracks children's negative emotions and targets vulnerable youth with harmful content, including targeting kids who fear being "too fat" with eating disorder material, showing the deliberate exploitation of minors. Bipartisan support exists for reform, with both Democratic and Republican senators preparing to introduce a bill to repeal Section 230, recognizing that tech companies are not policing themselves effectively. The Social Media Victims Law Center currently represents over 4,000 families whose children have been harmed or killed due to social media platform irresponsibility enabled by Section 230 immunity. Congressional education on online harms has accelerated with over 24 briefings since 2019, positioning the current Congress as potentially the most informed ever on these issues. Federal guidance on best practices remains insufficient, with some jurisdictions like San Diego developing excellent collaborative models while others lack functional systems for moving victims into services. Resources Social Media Victims Law Center - Social Media Litigation Lawyers Can't Look Away: The Case Against Social Media CDA230 Transcript [00:00:00] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast, brought to you by Vanguard University's Global Center for Women and Justice in Orange County, California. I'm Dr. Sandie Morgan, and this is a show where we equip you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in the fight to end human trafficking right where you are. [00:00:23] Today, I'm honored to welcome Dr. Eleanor Gaetan to the show. She's director of.
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    36 m
  • 348 — Grab Your Handle: How Anyone Can Join the Fight
    Jun 23 2025
    Andrew Kroeger joins Dr. Sandie Morgan as the two discuss how anyone can find their unique role in fighting human trafficking without changing careers, using the metaphor of grabbing a handle on an ancient Greek pithari jar. Andrew Kroeger Andrew Kroeger is a podcast producer with over a decade of experience and a proud Vanguard alum. Before podcasting, he worked in book publishing as an editor and spent years as a live sound engineer. He's also passionate about global missions, having spent many summers living in Romania, doing outreach work for the past eight years. Andrew has been the invisible force behind this podcast, editing every episode, managing the website, and ensuring content reaches listeners in over 170 countries. What's fascinating is how Andrew never set out to work in anti-human trafficking - this opportunity came to him through his existing skills and connections. Key Points Andrew's journey into anti-trafficking work began as a Vanguard student doing live sound for events, which led to connections that eventually brought him to podcast production work eight years later. The pithari metaphor illustrates how fighting human trafficking requires many people finding their unique "handle" - you don't need to carry the entire burden alone, just find where your skills fit. Andrew emphasizes that people don't need to change careers or entire life directions to make a meaningful impact in anti-trafficking work - opportunities often come through existing skills and connections. His global mission experience, particularly in Romania and Egypt's "Garbage City," gave him firsthand perspective on trafficking issues that keeps him passionate about the work. Eight years of editing every episode has transformed Andrew from a "tech guy" into a content expert who can now play an editorial role in shaping the podcast's message. Working consistently with anti-trafficking content can lead to emotional numbing, requiring intentional effort to maintain compassion and avoid becoming cynical about the work. The podcast's focus on hope and human dignity, rather than just statistics and outcomes, sets it apart from other anti-trafficking content and prevents burnout. Andrew's favorite episodes are those featuring Romania because they connect to his personal mission experience, and the recent AI episode with David Tyre because it showed how emerging technology can help rather than hinder anti-trafficking efforts. The podcast is transitioning to video format to reach more students and young professionals who prefer visual content and want to share episodes with friends and classmates. Finding your "handle" means recognizing opportunities that come to you naturally rather than forcing your way into anti-trafficking work - partnership is often more effective than starting from scratch. Resources Connect with Andrew 282 – Crisis Prevention of Ukraine Refugee Trafficking, with Ioana Bauer 341 – Following the Money: How Financial Crime Investigations Disrupt Human Trafficking Transcript [00:00:00] Sandie Morgan: Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast here at Vanguard University's Global Center for Women and Justice in Orange County, California. I'm Dr. Sandie Morgan, and this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. [00:00:24] Today I'm flipping the script and putting our producer Andrew Kroeger in front of the microphone. Andrew is a podcast producer with over a decade of experience. And a proud Vanguard alum. Before podcasting, he worked in book publishing as an editor and spent years as a live sound engineer. He's also passionate about global missions, having spent many summers living in Romania, doing outreach work for the past eight years. [00:01:05] Andrew has been the invisible force behind this podcast. He's been editing every episode, managing our website,
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    30 m
  • 347 – Hope Across the Globe: Spain Study Abroad Trip
    Jun 10 2025
    Dr. Brenda Navarrete and a group of Vanguard University students join Dr. Sandie Morgan as they reflect on their study abroad trip to Spain, where they partnered with Fiat to learn about trauma-informed care, survivor empowerment, and global anti-trafficking efforts. Dr. Brenda Navarrete and Students Dr. Brenda Navarrete is a professor and research associate at Vanguard University and an expert in trauma-informed survivor care. She teaches in the university’s Online Human Trafficking Certificate program. Her knowledge and cultural insight helped shape a meaningful and immersive learning experience for the Vanguard students during their study abroad program. Key Points The study abroad trip to Madrid gave Vanguard students firsthand experience with global anti-trafficking work through a partnership with Fiat, a nonprofit serving survivors in Spain. Students emphasized learning trauma-informed principles, such as avoiding re-victimization and respecting survivor autonomy. Art therapy and creative expression were highlighted as effective and healing methods used at the safe home, with students witnessing their calming and empowering effects. The cultural value of acomodida—a spirit of humble, proactive service—became a guiding principle for student engagement with survivors. Students learned that trauma-informed care includes mutuality and empowerment, where survivors also offer and give, creating meaningful connection. Activities like cooking, sharing stories, and doing art together fostered authentic relationships and mutual respect. Projects like the Tree of Life and vision boards allowed survivors to express their roots, hopes, and dreams in empowering and therapeutic ways. The behind-the-scenes roles at Fiat, from psychologists to accountants to legal teams, revealed the extensive support system needed to care for survivors effectively. The experience helped students connect their faith, education, and career goals with real-world advocacy and social justice work. Multiple students reflected on how the trip inspired them to pursue their dreams, shift their career direction, and deepen their commitment to anti-trafficking work. Dr. Brenda and Dr. Sandie both emphasized the mutual transformation that occurred during the trip—for both the survivors and the students—through shared humanity and humility. Students left with a renewed sense of purpose, hope, and vision for how they can contribute to justice and healing in their own communities. Resources Trip photos on the GCWJ Facebook page Transcript [00:00:00] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast. I'm Dr. Sandie Morgan, and this is the show where we equip you to study the issues, be a voice and make a difference. In the Fight to End human trafficking here at the Global Center for Women in Justice at Vanguard University and wherever you are. [00:00:22] In this special episode, we're joined by a passionate group of Vanguard University students, Bella Luzi, Alba, deiz Alvarado. Itel Monroy, Delaney Menninger, and Ariana Johnson. Along with professor and research associate Dr. Brenda Navarrete. They were all on the recent study abroad trip to Madrid, Spain. During this trip, we partnered with Fiat, an amazing nonprofit dedicated to preventing human trafficking and supporting survivors. [00:01:05] This experience gave our students a firsthand look at the realities of global anti-trafficking efforts, what prevention looks like in real communities, how frontline nonprofits operate, and the importance of collaboration. [00:01:25] Let's listen in as they reflect on how this journey shaped their learning, their faith, and their future advocacy. [00:01:35] Sandie Morgan: I [00:01:35] have been in Spain for the last 11 days with a Vanguard University Global Center for Women and Justice Study Abroad team. They have been working with the organization called Fiat, here in Madrid, Spain.
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    41 m
  • 346 – Leveraging Financial Tools To Disrupt Human Trafficking
    May 26 2025
    Derek Marsh joins Dr. Sandie Morgan as the two discuss leveraging financial tools and intelligence as core investigative strategies to disrupt human trafficking operations and improve survivor restitution outcomes. Derek Marsh Derek Marsh is the Associate Director of the Global Center for Women and Justice and a deputy chief with extensive law enforcement experience. He has been a frequent guest on the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast and led a recent roundtable discussion on following the money in human trafficking investigations. His background includes hands-on experience with trafficking investigations and a deep understanding of the collaborative approaches needed to combat these complex crimes. Key Points Financial intelligence serves as a core investigative tool that provides a clearer perspective of criminal organizations than traditional methods relying on confidential informants or victim testimony. Sophisticated money laundering patterns include funnel accounts, structured cash deposits, and geographically patterned movements that help traffickers hide the origin and legitimacy of their funds. Financial investigations can expose connections between what appear to be separate crimes, revealing larger criminal enterprises rather than isolated "mom and pop" operations. Suspicious Activity Reports (SARs) generated by banks when they detect unusual deposit patterns provide valuable intelligence for law enforcement agencies investigating trafficking operations. Advanced software tools like those from Valid8 Financial can visualize complex transaction flows and present financial data in comprehensible formats for courts, making cases stronger and easier to prosecute. Geographic analysis of financial flows reveals high-risk corridors between certain countries that banks monitor for potential criminal activity, such as Nigeria to Italy or Philippines to Europe pathways. Human trafficking investigations require multi-agency collaboration because finances cross jurisdictional boundaries as easily as phone calls or internet connections. Public-private partnerships with banks, corporations, NGOs, and faith-based organizations create interlocking layers of expertise that strengthen investigations globally. Financial tools enable law enforcement to seize assets and freeze accounts tied to trafficking operations, providing funds for survivor restitution that has historically been difficult to collect. Using financial intelligence reduces the burden on survivors to testify in court by providing concrete evidence that doesn't require victim testimony to prove criminal enterprise operations. The approach transforms financial intelligence into justice by treating human trafficking fundamentally as a financial crime that exploits people for profit. Training law enforcement on financial investigative techniques and providing AI-enhanced tools are essential since most officers lack accounting expertise needed for complex financial analysis. Resources Derek Marsh Valid8 Financial Roundable Notes (coming soon) 341 – Following the Money Transcript [00:00:00] Sandie Morgan: Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast. This is episode number 346, leveraging financial tools to disrupt human trafficking. I am very happy to be joined here in the studio by Global Center for Women and Justice Associate Director, deputy Chief Derek Marsh. [00:00:28] We have been working together for a very long time and he's been a frequent guest here on the podcast, so I'm not going to include a bio, but you can go back to the website and learn more from his perspective. By just searching our episodes with the name Derek Marsh. So we're gonna dive right into the financial aspects. [00:00:53] We recently interviewed David Tyree on following the money and we talked to, um, district attorney Ryann Jorban along the same lines. [00:01:05] Today we're going to look at this from a broader perspe...
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    32 m