• EP475: Is This a Moment or a Movement? With Peter Hayes

  • May 8 2025
  • Duración: 34 m
  • Podcast

EP475: Is This a Moment or a Movement? With Peter Hayes

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  • I was talking to Peter Hayes, my guest this week; and I said, “Peter, you post a lot about many, many different topics on LinkedIn and elsewhere. If you had to roll up all of your posts into a few main, I don’t know, change-making vectors or forces of change, roads to Damascus, what would they be? And, you know, do you wanna come on the pod and tell the tribe here what you’re thinking?” And Peter said, “I would love to.” For a full transcript of this episode, click here. If you enjoy this podcast, be sure to subscribe to the free weekly newsletter to be a member of the Relentless Tribe. So, this show is going to be a top-down kind of let’s try to get a handle on said major forces of change and how those forces have swirled together to create the place that we are now. So, most of this episode, I’m gonna strongly suggest Relentless Health Value Tribe members who tune in frequently there’s not any “Oh, wow! What a revelation! Probably that’s gonna happen” in the show today. And to be frank, that’s kind of the point. It wouldn’t be a major force if you all weren’t aware of it now, would it? The goal here is to figure out how to organize so many posts about so many different things on LinkedIn. There’s so many of these micro-moments, maybe I’d call them. How do we organize them into a manageable number of strategic fundamental goings-on that we all can wrap our brains around? That was my ask of Peter, and that is not easy, because it’s a valid question a lot of times when talking about healthcare transformation: Is it a moment, or is it a movement? This show is, again, what Peter Hayes thinks the movements are. The thing is, though, it is surprisingly hard to discern what the forces of change actually are. What we often experience as a big dramatic inflection point has almost always been gestating for a while. This creates an opportunity for us all here in the tribe because if we see the changes early or, even better, spark the changes, an inflection point can really be a strategic boon. And let me tell you, I want everyone listening to have a strategic advantage over those who, I don’t know, maybe are a little bit less concerned with putting patients before profits. But yeah, usually inflection points have been a long time coming because forces of change have been battering away for a while until they finally break through. I say this to acknowledge we’ve been talking about tipping points, and the total cost of healthcare simply cannot get any higher. We’ve been talking about this for probably decades, but Peter says right now he firmly believes we have a force majeure of bridges too far, of obvious over-the-line activities that offend normal people’s sense of justice and fair play. Peter believes we’re at a really unprecedented place right now. So, even if there’s some starts and stops, some too bigs to fail, like, for example, some of the lawsuits are getting thrown out because it’s legally unclear who the “aggrieved” party is. Yeah, too much of this country is feeling like an aggrieved party, so it’s only a matter of time. This is the major takeaway from the show today: Peter’s view of how three main forces in the ecosystem all braid together and reinforce each other and have created a kind of inexorableness that something’s gotta give. And part of the equation here is just—and I’m mentioning this because we keep talking about it—is a brutal lack of trust that’s really pervasive across so many parts of the industry: patient to healthcare system, clinician to healthcare system, etc. As you listen to the show, definitely consider the shows from earlier with Kenny Cole, MD (EP473) and Christine Hale, MD, MBA (EP471) about high-cost claimants. These shows are another view into this exact basic topic. They also show what trust can bring us if we earn it. I’m kind of thinking it could be cool to do shows like this periodically where we get different people to answer the question: What are the major forces of change? How are you rolling them up? And what is your assessment of where we are now in the journey of transformation? If I get enough of you who are, like, “Yeah, that’s a great idea,” I probably will be less likely to forget about it. Peter Hayes, my guest today is (technically, at least) retired. He was director of benefits at Hannaford Supermarkets for about 25 years. He’s been on the advisory boards of Express Scripts and Definitive Health, among others. He served on two healthcare reform commissions in Maine, appointed by two different governors. He headed up the Purchaser Alliance in Maine. Also mentioned in this episode are Kenny Cole, MD; Christine Hale, MD, MBA; Chris Crawford; Komal Bajaj, MD; Wayne Jenkins, MD; Yashaswini Singh, PhD; Ann Lewandowski; Al Lewis; John Rodis, MD, MBA, FACHE, CPHQ; Beau Raymond, MD; and Scott Conard, MD. You can learn more by following Peter on LinkedIn. Peter Hayes retired ...
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