In this episode of Climate Shifted, host Eva Frye speaks with Dr. Renee Lertzman, a pioneer in climate psychology who is transforming how we communicate about our planet's future. While most climate messaging bombards us with facts or terrifies us with doomsday scenarios, Renee's approach taps into something deeper: our human need to feel heard before we can change. Her groundbreaking work with Project Inside Out reveals why traditional "yelling, telling and selling" tactics fail so spectacularly with climate issues—they actually trigger defensiveness. Instead, Renee offers frameworks that help us become guides who create genuine dialogue rather than delivering monologues. Her approach is built on the same psychological techniques that help people overcome addiction—some of the most difficult behavior change imaginable. Whether you're an activist looking for new tools, a communicator hitting walls, or simply someone who cares and wants to share effectively, this conversation provides practical frameworks to transform how you engage with people about the climate crisis.

Transcript available here

• Moving beyond "yell, tell, sell" approaches to climate communication
• Using motivational interviewing techniques to create dialogue instead of defensiveness
• The importance of acknowledging anxiety, ambivalence, and aspiration
• Becoming a "guide" rather than an educator or cheerleader
• Addressing polarization through empathetic listening
• Creating sustainable activism campaigns that don't traumatize people
• Using attunement and relational approaches even for urgent campaigns

"Your job is to draw out from others what their concerns are, values, volition for change, and it's actually massively more impactful and effective than what I call yell, tell, and sell." - Renee Lertzman

"How to become a climate communication “guide”? The first step is to become very self-aware and with a lot of compassion, to go through a bit of an internal reflection on how am I showing up?" - Renee Lertzman

"It was crystal clear that we needed to be bridging these worlds of psychological insight with, what does it mean to actually come to terms with climate issues as well as how did we get here?" - Renee Lertzman

"It's very hard to do this work effectively unless you have a pretty high level of self-awareness." - Renee Lertzman

"A really good guide also is tuned in to how people are doing. And so, it's always a matter of balancing the 'take action now' with, 'I get it. Maybe this is upsetting to you, but we need to take action anyway.'" - Renee Lertzman

• Dr. Renee Lertzman - Climate psychologist and strategic advisor
• Project Inside Out - Resource platform for climate communication
• Alliance for Climate Education - Organization that worked with Renee on a video about how to talk about climate change
• Victor Frankl - Psychologist whose work Renee references
• Dan Siegel - Neuropsychologist mentioned for "name it to tame it" concept
• Barbara Ehrenreich - Author of "Nickel and Dimed"
• Van Jones - Activist mentioned for his ability to bridge divides
• Amy Edmondson - Harvard professor and expert on leadership development

1. Shift from educator to guide: Learn to create invitations for dialogue rather than lectures that trigger defensiveness.
2. Practice the three A's: Acknowledge anxiety, ambivalence, and aspiration in your audience to create deeper connection.
3. Use "Ask, Offer, Ask" (AOA): Start by asking about experience, offer information with permission, then ask for reflection.
4. Create reflective pauses: Help people find the space between stimulus and response where change can happen.
5. Practice "name it to tame it": Naming feelings reduces their charge and makes them more manageable.

• Subscribe to Climate Shifted wherever you listen to podcasts
• Follow @climateshifted on all social media platforms
• Share this episode with friends interested in climate communication
• Visit projectinsideout.net for resources on effective climate engagement
• Follow Renee's work at reneelertzman.com and subscribe to her Substack "Becoming Guides"

• Executive Producer & Host - Eva Frye
• Technical Producers - Mateus Salgado, Ryan Shuken
• Audio engineer - Gianna Scioletti
• Project management - Sarah Clayton

In this episode of Climate Shifted, host Eva Frye speaks with Julie Mallat, founder of The Climate Propagandist. Julie shares how she studies propaganda and persuasion techniques to help climate advocates craft more compelling messages that stick and spread. Learn how big oil has weaponized propaganda for decades and how we can flip their tactics to drive climate action. Explore what makes messages stick, Michael Mann's 5Ds framework for understanding corporate delay tactics, and why hope might be the biggest threat to polluting industries.

Transcript available

• How propaganda techniques can be used for positive climate communication
• The evolution of fossil fuel industry propaganda tactics
• Michael Mann's 5Ds framework to understand fossil fuel’s climate delay: Deflection, Delay, Division, Despair, and Doomism
• What makes messages stick and spread in the digital age
• How to measure impact in culture-based climate action
• Strategies for climate communicators to build effective campaigns

"We're not just in a battle of science, we're in a battle of narratives." - Julie Mallat

"Climate communication doesn't have to be boring or academic. It can be engaging, impactful. It can be easy to digest." - Julie Mallat

"Hope is actually a direct threat to their agenda." - Julie Mallat

• Julie Mallat - Founder of The Climate Propagandist
• Michael Mann - Scientist who developed the 5Ds framework of climate delay tactics
• Adrienne Maree Brown - Author mentioned regarding pleasure activism

Notable Ads & Campaigns Discussed

• Energy Transfer Hospital Ad: A controversial commercial showing a couple rushing to a hospital for childbirth, only to find it dark and empty, implying that ending fossil fuel use would lead to healthcare system failures. This exemplifies fear-based propaganda designed to convince the public that transitioning away from fossil fuels would be catastrophic. Watch here
• Parents for Future Campaign: An impactful campaign where British parents casually apologize for small daily mistakes before a mother looks at her baby and apologizes while climate disasters play out on TV. This campaign effectively leverages the "good ancestor frame," making people feel responsible for future generations. Watch here
• Clean Creatives Campaign: Organization behind campaign calling out agencies working with fossil fuel clients. Read here

Audio quotes

• President public quotes - DMW, WSJ
• "I Have a dream" public speech by MLK, YT

1. Think like a propagandist - Use the "stick and spread" method to craft narratives that both stick in people's minds and spread through populations.
2. Use culture as a vehicle - Don't just inform people, but change what's considered normal to make sustainability mainstream.
3. Be bold and subversive - The climate crisis is urgent, and communication tactics should reflect that urgency by challenging norms.

• Subscribe to Climate Shifted wherever you listen to podcasts
• Follow @climateshifted and @thewclimatepropagandist on all social media platforms, and on Substack
• Share this episode with friends interested in climate communication

• Executive Producer & Host - Eva Frye
• Technical Producer - Mateus Salgado
• Adviser - Ryan Shuken
• Project management - Sarah Clayton

Podcast where psychologists, behavior designers, artivists & movement builders share how to shift perception for climate action.

Featuring guests like Dr. Renee Lertzman, Xavier Cortada, Melinda Briana Epler, Autumn Leiker, Benjamin Von Wong, and more.

Credits

• Executive Producer & Host - Eva Frye
• Technical Producer - Mateus Salgado

Sources

• George Marshall on The Naked Scientists
• Dr. Renee Lertzman on TWM#61 videocast by Dr Matthew Goodman
• Adrienne Maree Brown on Laura Flanders & Friends