James K (James Karagiannis) has personally completed a stack of waste classifications. And in addition, he has reviewed somewhere between 1,000 and 1,200 reports written by other consultants for our clients. That gives him a rare, panoramic view of what great looks like … and what misses the mark.

Gunnar and Hammond, James Hammond, sit down with him to unpack what he sees when reviewing these reports: some work that’s brilliant, some … not so much. We talk about the “not so much” parts in this episode.

The original plan was to listen to James K. But with Gunnar’s well-known habit of let’s say, sharing his thoughts, and Hammond’s nerdy knowledge in resource recovery and compliance, there may have been a little more talking than listening at times.

Still, we think you’ll enjoy the conversation, have a few laugh and maybe even pick up a few tips to sharpen your own waste classification skills. Enjoy!

The episode was recorded on 11 September 2025.

Links mentioned in the episode:

Electric Vehicles are allowed to use transit lanes in NSW

NSW Health Expert Advisory Panel on PFAS

Nightcrawler in Netflix

Episode with Linda Apthorpe on asbestos in soils analysis

Episode with Pierina Otness on how to sample for asbestos in soil on a site

Episode with Ross McFarland about sampling and Decision Units

Gunnar's method of re-running samples accountably

Listen to Below the Surface and collect CPD points. We have confirmation that you can claim 0.5 points for every hour you spend with us under the Self Education Category

Contact: bts@4pillars.com.au

https://www.linkedin.com/company/below-the-surface-podcast

The necessary disclaimer: The views, thoughts, and opinions expressed in this Podcast are the speakers’ own. They do not necessarily represent the views, thoughts, and opinions of 4Pillars Environmental Consulting Pty Ltd or any Client, Supplier or other party related to 4Pillars or the speakers.

(c) Gunnar Haid and James Hammond

Tony Chappel, the CEO of the NSW EPA, is our guest today, so we are definitely back with a bang after the summer holidays.

Gunnar and James are (surprisingly!) well-prepared and keep the conversation on track as they dive into Tony’s journey to leading the EPA, his early priorities, the role of politics in environmental regulation, and the importance of deep listening in leadership. They explore everything from the OCSE paper and the EPA's potential collaboration with industry bodies, to the tricky disconnect between waste and contaminated sites, the zero-tolerance stance on asbestos in waste, updates to the ASC NEPM, and the growing pressures on landfill capacity.

And yes, Gunnar did try for a get-out-of-jail-free card from Tony… but no luck this time (nice try, though)!

Three experts, one great conversation, and a rare look into the leadership and direction of the NSW EPA. This is definitely one episode you won’t want to miss.

Links mentioned:
NSW Health Expert Advisory Panel on PFAS

Draft ASS Order and Exemption

Recorded on 19 August 2025

Listen to Below the Surface and collect CPD points. We have confirmation that you can claim 0.5 points for every hour you spend with us under the Self Education Category

Contact: bts@4pillars.com.au

https://www.linkedin.com/company/below-the-surface-podcast

The necessary disclaimer: The views, thoughts, and opinions expressed in this Podcast are the speakers’ own. They do not necessarily represent the views, thoughts, and opinions of 4Pillars Environmental Consulting Pty Ltd or any Client, Supplier or other party related to 4Pillars or the speakers.

(c) Gunnar Haid and James Hammond

Electric Vehicles are basically half price in Australia right now, thanks to some little-known government incentives. Gunnar and James decided it was the perfect time to talk… tax. Yes, tax. And you thought resource recovery was a boring subject, right?

But before you judge, listen to this episodes. Gunnar and James have brought in the big guns: chartered accountant Paul Mills (paulybmills at gmail.com).

It really sounds like the beginning of a bad joke: Two engineers and an accountant meet for a podcast ...

Somehow yet again they pull it off, though. This episode is full of genuinely valuable info. Paul explains what Fringe Benefits Tax (FBT) actually is, who pays it, and whether your lease company or car dealers are lying to you with their 'tax advice' (spoiler: probably). They also unpack the confusing mess that is the difference between a car loan, a lease, and a novated lease.

And most importantly: The kicker is that EVs (full EVs, not wannabe EV hybrids) are FBT exempt in Australia. If you do it right, that knocks off around 50% off the prices of buying an EV. How? You gotta listen to find out.

But remember: While Paul is brilliant, this podcast is still mainly about contaminated sites and resource recovery (some call it dirt and rubbish). So don’t go making financial decisions based on what you heard here without getting your own advice.

Recorded on 11 June 2025 (just before EOFY!)

Link to the EPA announcement regarding NEMP 3

Listen to Below the Surface and collect CPD points. We have confirmation that you can claim 0.5 points for every hour you spend with us under the Self Education Category

Contact: bts@4pillars.com.au

https://www.linkedin.com/company/below-the-surface-podcast

The necessary disclaimer: The views, thoughts, and opinions expressed in this Podcast are the speakers’ own. They do not necessarily represent the views, thoughts, and opinions of 4Pillars Environmental Consulting Pty Ltd or any Client, Supplier or other party related to 4Pillars or the speakers.

(c) Gunnar Haid and James Hammond

Gunnar claims almost all duplicates we take serve close to no purpose. If you want to know why, have a listen and be entertained and informed at the same time.

The OGs are back together in this episode, and quite an unusual one it is. This times it is James who goes on a few rants, quite to Gunnar's amusement. Of course, Gunnar has a few things to say as well and he will definitively ruffle some feathers with this episode.

We start off with playing Wikileaks by talking about a letter the EPA sent to all auditors regarding the staged introduction of V3 of the PFAS National Environmental Management Plan (NEMP) and also a clarification regarding PFAS and the Duty to Report. (Plug to our previous Episode #25 The Duty to Report).

Then Gunnar and James hash out some ideas on duplicates, high RPDs, re-running of samples, basic statistics, experimental setups in science and why being 'conservative' might not be delivering the results you think it is.

Episodes we talk about:

#29 The New AS5370 Standard with Linda Apthorpe

#25 The Duty to Report with Elizabeth Wild.

#11 The Sampling Evolution with Ross McFarland

Links:

EPA regulatory updates

Deana Crumbling

Security Theatre - Wikipedia

This episode was recorded on 17 May 2025

Listen to Below the Surface and collect CPD points. We have confirmation that you can claim 0.5 points for every hour you spend with us under the Self Education Category

Contact: bts@4pillars.com.au

https://www.linkedin.com/company/below-the-surface-podcast

The necessary disclaimer: The views, thoughts, and opinions expressed in this Podcast are the speakers’ own. They do not necessarily represent the views, thoughts, and opinions of 4Pillars Environmental Consulting Pty Ltd or any Client, Supplier or other party related to 4Pillars or the speakers.

(c) Gunnar Haid and James Hammond

Attention Asbestos in Soils Specialists, there is a new kid in town. The Australian Standard 4964-2004 Method for the qualitative identification of asbestos in bulk samples has been superseded with a new AS 5370.

What's different? What's better, what's worse? Why are we reporting below the detection and below the reporting limit? Is NATA on board with it? What do all those different sub-categories the laboratories report actually mean?

Gunnar is talking to Linda Apthorpe, a Certified Occupational Hygienist and Fellow of the Australian Institute of Occupational Hygienists (AIOH). Linda is Associate Principal Occupational Hygienist at Hibbs in Sydney, a Lecturer at the University of Wollongong, author of multiple scientific papers and speaker at a variety of professional development seminars. There are very few who are better suited to talk about this subject, especially since Linda was also on the panel of people who developed the new Standard.

James was unfortunately not there to keep Gunnar in check, and you guessed it, that resulted in not one, not two, but at least three (in)famous Gu-Rants in this episode. Some would say that alone makes this episode compulsory listening for anybody in the industry.

Episodes mentioned:

#2 The Mulchgate

#11 The Sampling Evolution

#28 The OCSE Odyssey

The episode was recorded on 11 April 2025

Listen to Below the Surface and collect CPD points. We have confirmation that you can claim 0.5 points for every hour you spend with us under the Self Education Category

Contact: bts@4pillars.com.au

https://www.linkedin.com/company/below-the-surface-podcast

The necessary disclaimer: The views, thoughts, and opinions expressed in this Podcast are the speakers’ own. They do not necessarily represent the views, thoughts, and opinions of 4Pillars Environmental Consulting Pty Ltd or any Client, Supplier or other party related to 4Pillars or the speakers.

(c) Gunnar Haid and James Hammond

The Office of Chief Scientist and Engineer (OCSE) has issued recommendations concerning asbestos in waste and soil. Sarah Mansfield, Special Counsel (and environmental law superstar) at Norton Rose Fulbright, breaks down the key points and their legal implications.

Given the focus on the PoEO Act and its handling of asbestos, you'd expect at least one of our hosts to go off the rails with a classic, epic rant. But, against all odds, age, wisdom, and a dash of professionalism took the reins—so much so that this episode doesn’t even come close to earning the 'explicit' rating it sometimes gets on various platforms.

Gunnar's composure alone is a highlight (though he admits to biting his tongue to the point of unhealthiness!). Add to that the invaluable insights from James and Sarah, and you've got an episode well worth your time. We loved making it as always, and we hope you enjoy every moment.

Leave a review or drop us a message. We thrive on connecting with our listeners!

Upcoming ALGA event 1 May 2025. Sara is one of the presenters: Sydney Branch Event - OCSE Report: Management of Asbestos in Recovered Fines and Recovered Materials for Beneficial Reuse in NSW | ALGA

This episode was recorded on 25 March 2025

Listen to Below the Surface and collect CPD points. We have confirmation that you can claim 0.5 points for every hour you spend with us under the Self Education Category

Contact: bts@4pillars.com.au

https://www.linkedin.com/company/below-the-surface-podcast

The necessary disclaimer: The views, thoughts, and opinions expressed in this Podcast are the speakers’ own. They do not necessarily represent the views, thoughts, and opinions of 4Pillars Environmental Consulting Pty Ltd or any Client, Supplier or other party related to 4Pillars or the speakers.

(c) Gunnar Haid and James Hammond

Rod Harwood - do we need to say anything else?

There are few who have had more influence on our industry and who have contributed more than Rod. Gunnar had a chat with Rod and while they reminisce about 'the good old days', Rod sprinkles in some anecdotes of his impressive career and shares gems of his incredible knowledge as an engineer and a business man.

James was unfortunately unavailable (you know, work and stuff ...), but we promise, this is one everybody in our industry will enjoy.

BTS Episode mentioned: The Duty to Report

The episode was recorded on 7 March 2025.

Listen to Below the Surface and collect CPD points. We have confirmation that you can claim 0.5 points for every hour you spend with us under the Self Education Category

Contact: bts@4pillars.com.au

https://www.linkedin.com/company/below-the-surface-podcast

The necessary disclaimer: The views, thoughts, and opinions expressed in this Podcast are the speakers’ own. They do not necessarily represent the views, thoughts, and opinions of 4Pillars Environmental Consulting Pty Ltd or any Client, Supplier or other party related to 4Pillars or the speakers.

(c) Gunnar Haid and James Hammond

Gunnar and James take a dive into all sorts of events that have happened in the past few weeks.

1 - The EIANZ announces the punishment of a member.

2 - A $30,000 fine issued by a Council

3 - MASSIVE NEWS: The Office of the Chief Scientist and Engineer has released a recommendation to the NSW Government regarding the "Management of asbestos in recovered fines and recovered materials ...". Gunnar and James present the key points and almost find reasons to celebrate.

We start off with an answer to the question, why there are so many Ampol and Caltex service stations on the contaminated land register. Gunnar's long time friend Simon Caples knows exactly why and he provides a rather amusing and amazing explanation. Flashback to the last episode 'The Duty to Report'.

Other BTS Episodes mentioned:

#14 The Honest Truth - Re the EIANZ Code of Ethics

#8 The Power Grab - Re the new fines in the PoEO Act

#9 The Amazing Pierina - Re asbestos in soil assessments

This episode was recorded on 25 February 2025

Listen to Below the Surface and collect CPD points. We have confirmation that you can claim 0.5 points for every hour you spend with us under the Self Education Category

Contact: bts@4pillars.com.au

https://www.linkedin.com/company/below-the-surface-podcast

The necessary disclaimer: The views, thoughts, and opinions expressed in this Podcast are the speakers’ own. They do not necessarily represent the views, thoughts, and opinions of 4Pillars Environmental Consulting Pty Ltd or any Client, Supplier or other party related to 4Pillars or the speakers.

(c) Gunnar Haid and James Hammond