APMM Series - City Managers as Deliberative Systems Leaders with Martín Carcasson

🎧 This episode of PCC Local Time is part of the APMM Series, featuring conversations with Pennsylvania’s municipal managers and leaders about the evolving practice of local government.

Follow APMM on LinkedIn and Read more at APMM.net

In this episode of the APMM Series, produced in partnership with PCC Local Time, Nancy J. Hess and Dr. Martin Carcasson explore how local government leaders can shift from problem-solvers to systems builders. Together, they trace how small shifts in process — better questions, framing, and facilitation — can profoundly affect trust and decision-making in communities.

Dr. Martin Carcasson is a professor of Communication Studies at Colorado State University and the founding director of the Center for Public Deliberation (CPD) — a university-community partnership that helps local governments, school districts, and civic organizations improve how they talk about complex public issues.

Martin’s work draws from communication theory, social psychology, and systems thinking to design better public conversations about “wicked problems” — the issues that have no simple or permanent solutions.

He has collaborated extensively with the Kettering Foundation, the National Civic League, and the International City/County Management Association (ICMA), where he’s trained city managers and superintendents to act as deliberative systems leaders.

In his words:

“If city managers see themselves as systems leaders — deliberative systems leaders — their job is to get a sense of how this system works, and then figure out how to intervene in this system to improve it.”

More resources from Dr. Martin Carcasson:

CPD resources page and my youtube channel

🧭 Timestamps00:00 – 02:20 — Opening: Why talk about conversations at all?

Martin distinguishes debate, deliberation, and dialogue.

“Debate, deliberation, and dialogue… each has strengths and weaknesses.” 02:20 – 05:10 — The Charlie Kirk example and what it reveals about campus “deliberative systems”

A live example of tough conversations and what universities can learn.

05:10 – 07:30 — Nancy introduces Paul Bloom’s “Against Empathy” and the need for reflection“Am I being manipulated or am I being educated?” — Nancy 07:30 – 10:00 — Why conversation matters in local government

Nancy frames the skepticism many leaders have: “Do we really need all these meetings?”

Martin connects it to wicked problems and shared goals

“We prefer the simple story… but these issues require complexity.” — Martin 10:00 – 13:00 — Brain science and the limits of human nature

Why we resist nuance — and how public processes often make this worse.

13:00 – 16:40 — Pre-work matters: why tough conversations shouldn’t start “on the fly”“Confidence becomes very powerful… often when it shouldn’t be.” —...