Michele Norris So. Hey, Eric Kim, thanks so much for being with us.

Eric Kim Thanks for having me. It's an honor, truly.

Michele Norris Well, I am so excited because your latest cookbook fell into my hands, and I have been wanting to talk to you about your story, in part because it's just such a beautiful book, and I love many of the recipes. And you grabbed me with the introduction, which of course is all about your mom.

Eric Kim Yeah. Thank you for saying that.

Michele Norris So you know the deal. This is a podcast that always begins with a simple question. Tell me about your mama's kitchen. Take me inside her space. Close your eyes. Describe what the kitchen of your youth looked like. Smelled like. Put me inside that space.

Eric Kim Whoa, I, I didn't think to do this before the interview. Now I'm, like, closing my eyes and thinking about it. So I would say we moved a few times. Not that many times, but every time we moved, as you know, when I was little, it would be ten minutes down the block or something. And then eventually I was like ten minutes closer to my dad's office. And anyway, we were always quite in the same area, which meant all the houses kind of look the same for the most part. Each house, the garage is always next to the kitchen, or the garage even opens into the kitchen always, which meant the garage was also used as a, I don't know, like a little refrigerator in the winter, lots of like, jars and things like that. So the kitchen kind of starts outside of the kitchen. You know, where the garage door is. It's a very like Suburban Georgia but, I mean, maybe suburban American like house design. And then you go in and, you know, I don't know how, but every single house, like 3 or 4 houses, it's always just the same kitchen island. There's like a big kitchen island. So I really value kitchen islands because I think that's where like a lot of the cooking happens. And in one of the kitchens, the stove was at the kitchen island, which I thought was kind of amazing at the center of the kitchen versus to the side, you know, but each kitchen kind of created the same sort of environment where everyone always, it's like a cheesy image that every food writer gives. But, you know, everyone does hang around the kitchen. That's where the food is. So we barely used our dining room or our dining tables. We were always in the kitchen.

Michele Norris Did - does your mom, you call her Jean, by the way, which is interesting because in and you grew up in the South and in the South, people don't call their mother by the first name. So what's that about?

Eric Kim To be clear, I don't call her Jean to her face. It was sort of a narrative device that I decided early on when I was writing about her for the first time. You know, not even in the book. Just in my stories at 52 or Food Network. She was really just fleshed out as a character, you know, because she's so dynamic and interesting and fun and she's, she's a big character. And I think I wanted people ultimately to get to know her individually, not just as a mom or an immigrant trope. You know, actually, in Korean culture, even Korean mothers, they take on their children's names. It's like, oh, Eric's mom or Jesse's mom. [In Korean] It's usually the first kid's name plus mom. So it's like almost a literal loss of identity once you have children. So I just wanted to reverse that here in the telling and to show her as herself. And it's also a big learning process for me. Working on the book really helped me to see her from a more objective perspective so I could write about her, I don't know, with nuance or with the truth.

Michele Norris So that was a writing tool for you. It was easier to write about Jean than to write about your mom in some way.

Eric Kim You know? Yes, I think there is a part of that because I don't know. For me, I need distance from something, I need time, I need to know that what I'm providing is only the tip of the iceberg, because the rest is for me and my family, because actually, my mother is very private. She's a very private person. She'd never wanted to do any of the PR for the book, and she agreed to one talk in Atlanta, which is great, is like her, you know, because we're we're home and there's a lot of people we knew that would show up. But she just hates the idea of a fame or anything like that.

Michele Norris Well, now I feel bad because I have a bunch of questions I want to ask about it. No, no, no. Feeling like maybe I shouldn't intrude her privacy?

Eric Kim No, no, I mean, I've written about her and she knows that I talk about her. It's more that she doesn't, doesn't herself want to have to be that person. But you know what's interesting? She kind of is that person in in Atlanta. She's so popular in the Korean-American community for her food. It's obviously really delicious, like before this book. So I don't know. We deal with it in different ways, but I'm happy to talk about my mom. This is this book really is dedicated to her, and I think she loves... She secretly also likes the attention I think.

Michele Norris Your mother sounds like she is fully in command in her kitchen.

Eric Kim Yes.

Michele Norris And so I want you. Thank you for painting a picture of the kitchen and how you enter through the garage, and how the garage is an extension of the kitchen. But, now, I want you to paint a picture of your mother in command in her kitchen, where she's making... I don't know, let's say she's making Sunday supper.

Eric Kim Oh, man. She always has an apron on. And, you know, Sunday suppern dor a lot of people, it's like a roast chicken or a red sauce. And that's actually my my Sunday supper now as an adult in my own kitchen. But my mother always puts on an apron. It's usually has, like, cute little, like, cartoon figures on it, just like something from Korea. And she always fries fish. There's a lot of fish in in our house. And I think it makes sense in Korean cuisine, like people don't really talk about that much, but there's always the fried fish smell in a good way. Like, let's, you know, that dinner's happening and there's usually rice that's sort of steaming on the side. And, you know, in the rice cooker.

Michele Norris What kind of fish?

Eric Kim You know, it's usually yellow croaker. It's this very buttery, like soft, almost salmon-like, but not quite as like rich. But you salt it beforehand. And the reason to do that is to get it to really soak up the, the seasoning, but also it makes it not rubbery, but like it just firms it up slightly. So it's it's tender but firm and also very juicy. It's hard to explain and it's just like a different kind of fish that tastes so good. And it's like not quite dried, you know, it's not like a jerky. It's more like just the perfect. And so that's like a really familiar smell for me. That's I just spent a long time talking about that fish. But that's exactly the smell of the kitchen.

Michele Norris Different kitchens have different personalities, and they reveal themselves often in the condiments and in the oils and the things that are all around the side. You're smiling even before I get to the question, because you know where I'm going to tell me all about that aspect of your mother's kitchen and its personality as revealed through condiments.

Eric Kim Man, these are great questions. Thank you so much. You just really unlocked a memory my mom has this... My memory of my mom's cabinets were like sesame oil smell and kind of like also all over everything. All over every bottle. Like she the way she cooked was, I guess I don't say messy like sesame oil does get everywhere. It was her olive oil. She was using it so much, but also using neutral oil. But that sesame oil is just. I didn't realize until later how Korean it was. And that was a really lovely moment in my like, cooking life, because when I moved back home to write this cookbook with her and stayed with her for nine months, that was like my first time being back home like that in a very permanent way since I had left for college, you know, and it was one of those moments when I realized, wow, her pantry, it's quite specific, actually specific to her. Not just and not just Korean cooks, but to her, the sesame oil is still a thing. It's like still kind of all over everything.

Michele Norris And kind of sticky, too.

Eric Kim It is a little viscous. Yeah. And but not to mention she has these syrups that she loves. And then gochugaru, which is that Korean red pepper powder. And then in her other pantry, like in the fridge, which is where her kimchi fridges are and stuff like that. She has kochu Jang, she has ten Jang. She has these jangs that are kind of seasonings that underpin a lot of Korean cooking, and people call them condiments, but they're more like bases for cooking, like a sofrito or something. I sort of saw these sets of ingredients. I was like, if someone just bought these 5 or 6 items, then they could cook everything in the book, you know, with pantry items. And so I was hoping to just, like, change people's mind about what a pantry is and can be. It's like just so personal to you. And I was really trying to channel my mom when I did this book, and a lot of those ingredients are now in my pantry, of course.

Michele Norris So you went back home to write the book, and you were in your mother's kitchen cooking with her, observing, does she like people in her kitchen? Because not everybody does.

Eric Kim I feel like you. I'm laughing because I feel like you know her so well. To me, the questions are like, pointed in a funny way, because she she hates people in her kitchen.

Michele Norris I somehow, I somehow intuited that.

Eric Kim I love that you knew that. Yes. She, she doesn't like people in her kitchen, but, you know, sometimes I don't either. Like when I'm cooking Thanksgiving dinner. She's sort of my protector. She's like, okay, Eric needs everyone out of the kitchen. Like, stop crowding the stove. Like, we have to put out ten dishes right now. We run as a a kitchen duo pretty well like. But one of us is always taking lead. There's never a moment where we're equal. That doesn't work. There's always a hierarchy hits.

Michele Norris And is that negotiated or do you just understand who sous and who's lead?

Eric Kim Oh, I think it's honestly based on feeling maybe it's we don't really discuss it, but it's always clear who's leading and who's not like whose dinner it is, who's whose dinner it isn't. So I think we just like intuit it maybe. Oh, that's really pretty. Yeah.

Michele Norris It's really beautiful that you have this relationship with your mom and that you can cook together and that you can live peacefully together. During the pandemic, when a lot of us were thrown back into our home spaces or locked down into home spaces with people that we usually only spent about six, eight, ten hours a day with. And then we were spending what felt like 36 hours a day, even though there were only 24 hours in a day. So it's really wonderful that you have that relationship. But we should note that your relationship with your mother has been complicated.

Eric Kim Yeah, it has been. People gloss over that part.

Michele Norris Well you don't you begin your cookbook, you just dive right in. I mean, in the first chapter, I think it's in the first sentence. I ran away from home.

Eric Kim Yeah. You know, I think it took living with her again as an adult to realize how much more nuanced our relationship could be, how it was going to be different because, for a decade, I had just been coming home for Christmas and Thanksgiving and just like saying hi and bye and leaving. And that's the joy of being a child, right? You get to come home and just relax and not be the adult anymore. But writing this book with her, spending time with her just the day to day of it, and like seeing her wins. Or maybe if she was having a good day or a bad day. It's really interesting being roommates with your mother as an adult. And, you know, I had just turned 30, I think, when I left after nine months of like working with her on this cookbook, and I felt a real shift, I was like, wow, our relationship is different now because we've established different kinds of rules and boundaries, and I think that's lovely. It's like constantly evolving and something I'm in the process with.

Michele Norris Why was your relationship with your mom so complicated when you were a teenager?

Eric Kim Whoa. I think... the main thing was that we were so similar, maybe. I don't know. I think that's a cop out, but. My mother and I kind of occupied a similar role in our family, and I think it was the role of people who communicate. Where my brother would be hiding more of himself as he grew up and gained confidence. And I really like told them everything I was thinking at all times. So I was very I was kind of a handful. Some of that involved just maybe rebelling a little bit or I was I think I was I wasn't a bad kid, but I was doing things that were a little different than the other kids.

Michele Norris Like what?

Eric Kim I don't know, something as simple as, like in school, all of our friends kids were maybe going into science and math or tech or something like that, but her kid was like this music, creative writing-y guy and literature. But every time I would present her with like, a new thing, she'd be like, oh, I didn't expect to, like, have a son who would want to become an English teacher or like a musician or something like that. I think with that she would try to learn the thing. She'd be like, okay, let's I want to try to understand what your dream is or like what your thing is that you like right now. Because I had phases, you know, in the music phase, she was like, okay, if we're doing this, we're doing it right. We're going to get voice lessons. We're going to like, get into Berklee. Like she was always a very good hype man, I think. And so I think the tension came from in a much more superficial way in the kitchen, to be honest. It was just disagreeing about how to cook certain things. But I think because we had such a strong foundation, it was not that hard to like, eventually have some empathy in the kitchen towards your mother and your son to just be just like, listen to each other more. But we're both very stubborn. So that was a really long answer. But I think that led us back to the kitchen.

Michele Norris When when you were a teenager, when she said, if you're going to do music, let's get you into Berkelee, let's, you know, figure out how to get your voice lessons. Did you feel in some ways that she was trying to control the narrative for you rather than let you explore on your own and just figure it out?

Eric Kim That's interesting. My mom wasn't a momager. She wasn't like a stage manager. I like that.

Michele Norris Momager. I love her more word.

Eric Kim Yeah, it's a big thing. But, you know, if my mom was a momager, it was just that she learned how to drive better so that she could drive, like, two hours to, I don't know, like Valdosta, Georgia, for that flute audition for State orchestra or something like random. You know, she she always let me do the thing that I wanted to do. You know, she she did her best to, like, help it along. So I look back now and I'm like, wow, that was really lovely. She showed me a model of, like, how to find the thing that you're good at that you're supposed to do. And I sort of lived my life like that. And finding food writing was really random, but maybe I wouldn't have found it so easily if if I didn't have my mom.

Michele Norris It's really nice to have someone who's in your corner who believes in you. You know, who is always telling you you can be what you want to be.

Eric Kim Yeah, but who's also really critical as well. I had this cover story about kimchi. You know, it's a big win. I don't know, I honestly.

Michele Norris Was this for.

Eric Kim For the New York Times. It was this huge picture of kimchi on the cover of the food section. And I wrote this piece where I interviewed all these Korean, really amazing Korean chefs. And I happened to be in Georgia. So I picked up a copy at Publix and I, like, laid it out on the counter. I was like, look, Kimchi's on the front page of the food section. I think she was kind of like, I feel like she like, criticized the photo mostly the way the food looked. And I was like, that's a weird thing to focus on. Like, I thought, you know, I was trying to share with her this, like this, you know, this nice moment in my career where I got to write about kimchi in a big way for The New York Times. But, when she saw my face, cause I was kind of like, wow. It's a weird thing to focus on. She was like, well, you know, like, I'm, I'm not just anyone like, I, it's your work, so I thought you would want my honesty because, like, I have taste. And she made a good point. I was like, you're right, you do have taste. And so, I don't know, it was one of those things where I was like, it sounds like tough love, but it's actually more just like she's, I like her honesty. It was really helpful during recipe development. She was just like, oh, that is terrible. Or like she, you know, she wouldn't feed around the bush. So it's nice to have someone like that, which is very honest.

Michele Norris So many of us have like, gosh, mom was right. Moments like.

Eric Kim Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

Michele Norris She was actually right. I want her to be right. This was supposed to be my thing.

Eric Kim Yeah, I'm starting to realize that now. Luckily, like, sooner than later, but she's just I don't know if she's always right. Or at least if she's saying something that I disagree with.

Michele Norris Have you told her that she's always right? Because she knew she probably loved to hear that.

Eric Kim You know, I think she she knows it. She doesn't need me to say it. So yeah, I've definitely said those words to her in Korean. Yeah. Because we trust each other.

Michele Norris In the book, it begins with an introduction, and the very first words in the very first chapter are, when I was 17 years old, I ran away from home. Okay, I'm not going to continue reading, but you're going to have to explain what happened. Why did you run away from home? You went to Nashville, why did you run away and why did you go to Nashville?

Eric Kim You know, I ran away because college acceptance letters had just come in and I went to a really competitive public high school in Georgia, and there's so much pressure. But I remember being so disappointed when I didn't get into my dream schools. And the rejection letters were already torn open on my mom's bed. Like I walked in and I didn't get to, like, feel that experience.

Michele Norris She opened the letters before you did.

Eric Kim Yeah. All of this.

Michele Norris We should explain that.

Eric Kim She opened all of my mail and, you know, up until then, I wasn't really getting that much mail. So, like, there wasn't a situation where she saw that as a boundary crosser because I was a kid and she was like, I'm gonna open the mail because it it's going to tell us whether he got into the school that I'm going to pay for, you know? And I really understand why she opened all that mail, but we had to have a conversation about it. After that, I was like, well, first I ran away because I was so angry. And I was also just really disappointing.

Michele Norris Just the sequencing of that was really interesting. We had to have a conversation, but first I ran away.

Eric Kim I was so young and so angry, and I was mostly projecting my anger because obviously I was just mad at myself for not getting into the schools that I wanted to get into, and I was disappointed, and I just wanted to go see my cousin in Nashville.

Michele Norris Which is not around the corner from Atlanta. So how did you get to Nashville?

Eric Kim I just drove there. I took the car.

Michele Norris Wait a minute, wait a minute. You took you took a car that did not have your name on the title.

Eric Kim No one's pressed me about this. Everyone just lets the story happen. But it was a really lovely trip. I think my mom knew what had happened. She, like, could tell. She just, like, knew me so well. She was like, oh, Eric needs to blow off steam. He's like upset about this, but he's pretending to be mad at me and then..

Michele Norris He's pretending to be made at me... [laughter.] How long did you stay away? You went to go visit your cousin in Nashville?

Eric Kim She worked in Nashville, stayed over the weekend. It was a very chill weekend, but ultimately, my mom did reach out to my cousin Becky, being like, is he okay? And Becky was like, I don't know, but let me check. And Becky played telephone and she was like, yeah, yeah, he's fine. He's just blowing off steam. And and then when I came home, she was really nice.

Michele Norris So what was it like? Wait a minute. You leave home. Didn't tell anybody where you were going. Come home. What was the reentry like?

Eric Kim Oh, God, I sound so spoiled. The reentry was. My mom and I just had dinner. She, like, had made food, and she was like...

Michele Norris She didn't say, boy, where are you? Where have you been?

Eric Kim She she just asked me. She asked me how was your trip?

Michele Norris Was it tipping with sarcasm or was it. No. It was glad to see. I'm glad you're safe. And I'm glad you're home.

Eric Kim Yeah, I think she was like, I'm glad you're home. It was. It was very unspoken. But yeah, I remember getting very emotional because, like, I just hadn't done anything until that moment, you know? Like, I was such a good kid. I mean, really good support network. A lot of cousins around a big brother. Like, I read a an online review of this book just before coming here because I was just like, I don't know what you have been saying about this. I actually don't even know. And one person had said, I loved reading about a home that I was never a part of, but I wish I was or something like that. And I was like, whoa. I mean, it puts into perspective and I recognize that the upbringing I had was very charmed. You know, it had its hardships, which every family does. But when I really think back on it, I'm like, wow, I was super lucky.

Michele Norris Well, you know, we have to talk about kimchi.

Eric Kim Haha yeah.

Michele Norris Well, and one reason that many people in Korean households have additional refrigerators is because of kimchi. I wonder if we should start with the refrigerators? And notice that I said refrigerator plural.

Eric Kim Oh my god, yeah, that's really spot on. My mom has, my mom has so many refrigerators. She has two regular sized ones. One is in the basement, and it sort of holds all of the more esoteric pantry ingredients that she flies over from Korea every year. So she only goes down there when she really needs to replenish her, like garlic stock, for instance, and then sort of like our little, like garden. And the upstairs fridge is our regular fridge that gets swapped out with the weeknight dinners and some ponchan that we eat regularly. But then she also has these two kimchi fridges and they almost look like freezer door coolers. Like, kind of like you're looking for ice cream at the grocery store anyway.

Michele Norris They're they're like the big chests that you kind of open up?

Eric Kim You open up, yeah. And then you sort of look at it like treasure. It's pretty incredible. And she has all of her kimchis in these fridges. One of them's like, you know, in the awning towards the garage. The other one is in the garage. That's like four fridges. Yeah, she has like four fridges.

Michele Norris Just four, are there are there any secret fridges that she has that you don't even know about?

Eric Kim Well, oh, actually, they do have their secret fridge. And my dad's.

Michele Norris Oh she does. She actually does have a secret fridge. That was a joke, but she actually does have a secret fridge.

Eric Kim No you made me realize they have a secret fridge. They have this, like, mini one that they use for, like, their liquids. Like, my dad apparently drinks so much whole milk that he needs a whole carton, like in his bedroom next to his desk. It's so funny. And they keep, like, I don't know, beer and, like, fruit and, like, stuff like that in there.

Michele Norris Now you have to explain why she has so many refrigerators.

Eric Kim Each one sort of has a role in her realm of cooking, and it's just meant that her pantry has grown so much because she uses the freezer as an extension of her pantry, which is really smart.

Michele Norris And in the book, you say that kimchi is a verb. Explain that.

Eric Kim Yeah. You know, in doing the translation of Korean food for an English audience or just from Korean culture to American culture, it's interesting to see how you can borrow the the language as well. And you're right, kimchi is not a verb in Korean, but it's something that I hear Korean Americans saying all the time. They're always like, oh, I'm going to kimchi this or I kimchi'ed that. And that's how special it is. It's not like I'm going to preserve this, but the specificity of the kimchi is so great that you need a new word for it. And I love stuff like that. We're not leaning into the the verb of kimchi enough, meaning turning a vegetable into kimchi. It's like it's a process that's really specific, just the salting and then the seasoning and then the fermenting. But that end product I've been making kimchi like kale kimchi because I love Tuscan kale. And it's so bitter and delicious and it's really different. And I kimchi'ed that kale. You know.

Michele Norris That sounds like a like you're bragging I kimchi'ed that kale.

Eric Kim You should brag. It's so much. It's kind of a lot of work.

Michele Norris Can we talk about the process of making kimchi? It seems like it's really simple, but it also sounds like if you mess up one of those simple steps that it could go in the wrong direction. So what are the basics of making your mother Jean's kimchi?

Eric Kim Yeah, I think simple is a great word. I always try to remind people that that just because something takes long doesn't mean it's not simple, and it's just sort of a progression of little things you have to do.

Michele Norris So wait, what do you need to begin? You need a big...

Eric Kim Oh yeah yea.

Michele Norris Like a vat right?

Eric Kim You need a big vat.

Michele Norris Plastic?

Eric Kim Plastic is great. Metal is totally fine as well. In this step it's really just getting the salt on the kimchi and.

Michele Norris And you cut a cabbage in half.

Eric Kim You cut one napa cabbage in half. Yeah. And you salt it. I like to use just regular coarse kosher salt. This is the one part that you just need to follow the recipe, because you need the proportion to be right. The proportion of salt to the cabbage. And you know, in the recipe I do give a very specific type of salt. It's like Mortin coarse kosher salt that I develop this with. And I used a different kosher salt one time when I was like, you know, doing a video and that kimchi didn't taste as good and like didn't come out right. The salting step is the baseline that helps you create a safe environment for probiotic production, like you're growing bacteria, but like in a safe environment so that it's only like beneficial, like good bacteria.

Michele Norris So no improvisation there.

Eric Kim No improvisation there. You know, I will weigh my vegetables, just so I know that I have the right proportion of, like, salt to weight of a veg, and then you're just creating a sauce, and the sauce is really where you can be creative. But Jean's is just really like punchy. It's like super savory, salty, tangy with from like a little fruit. She also adds pine nuts sometimes, which are really, really nice, ginger. Some kimchis don't have as much ginger, but you just do what you like. And the sweetness in here comes from Meshi Cheong, which is that green plum syrup. And that plum syrup is a little fruitier and tarter. And what's really lovely is the sauce also gets whole vegetables. So most of the sauce is like pureed, but you also matchstick like some Korean radish and scallion and whatever vegetables you want. Some people do carrots, the more like whole vegetable that's not pureed. Those let out their natural water and sort of thin out the sauce as it's pickling. That's something that kind of like realized there's sort of a formula in this second step of the sauce is really where you can like have fun. Like sometimes I'll swap out the radish with beetroot, just raw, peeled, matchstick beetroot and it turns the kimchi like purple or like pink. It's really beautiful. So that's the second step. And then you just sauce the cabbage. You're just sort of like smearing the sauce in between each leaf.

Michele Norris So once you actually slather the sauce all over the cabbage inside the leaves, get it all over every place. Then you put it inside a jar with a very tight seal.

Eric Kim So it's like a plastic lid, not an airtight mason jar lid, because there's going to be gas in the jar that needs to get out. And that's how people's like jars explode. I don't want to scare you, but I've never had a jar of kimchi explode on me. My mom has never had it happen to her. It's like a baby and you have to burp it, you have to burp it, you know, after the first two days and then every, like, week. But this is something you'll do inherently if you're eating it, like if you need to dip into it. And then when you do it, you'll hear this almost like a bottle of sprite. It's like [air pop sound] that's how you know, it's like doing well.

Michele Norris So once you have the jars of kimchi and you're checking on them and you're letting a little air out and you're burping your babies, give us an example of something that you would make with the kimchi. Because the cookbook includes so many options. There's a kimchi sandwich and there's kimchi stew, and there's all kinds of things that you can do with kimchi. What in particular would you recommend?

Eric Kim You know, I really think people should just start with kimchi jjigae. It's a kimchi stew jjigae means stew, and it's one of those things that you make out of the jar of kimchi that you forgot about for many, many months. And then you find it in the back and you're you open it, you're like, whoa, that's like rank. But, you know, it's going to taste incredible because the fermentation has caused, like all of the savoriness to be just super deep and wonderful. That kimchi makes a really good stew. And I love this recipe because it's a very hands off, kind of like pared down version of my mom's kimchi jjigae. Hers is already pretty simple, like she'll rely on the kimchi juice to provide most of the flavor of the dish. So the kimchi has to be good. But I'm also very aware of people who don't have, you know, day old mom kimchi. So I tested it with all their things and really just a little kochujang. Just like this amazing fermented chili paste. Adds some savoriness and depth and, pork belly and a little onion at the end. And the things are added to the pot very gradually and sequentially. So like they're added in the order in which they need to be cooked, which means the pork starts first, but each ingredient builds a layer of kind of flavor in the ultimate broth. And it's a really different method of cooking. It's relying on that like fast, burbling, kind of liquid kind of heat verses and a lot of Western cooking. It's like searing it first very hard and then adding liquid and then braising for a long time. But this takes like 10 or 15 minutes. But those 15 minutes are really optimized. That's why I love this kimchi jjigae. And when you overcook the kimchi jjigae, actually the taste, the flavors will be a little more muddled.

Michele Norris So you want everything to have its own distinct. Yeah flavor.

Eric Kim Yes. Yeah. It's a very bright version of kimchi jjigae. And the reason I picked this recipe, I like this recipe a lot is because the photo is the shot from behind with my mother in this amazing hanbok, just having lunch for herself. And what's funny is like, I mean, it was her lunch, just really hungry.

Michele Norris That actually is her just that's her style.

Eric Kim Yeah. Yeah. I mean, her outfit is stylized, but it was just really cute watching her be like, I get to eat this. Like, this is such a fancy version of my, you know, we're trying to mimic what her lunch would look like. Anyway, I love that recipe. And I love that dish. And I don't know, I hope people make it because it's a really everyday kind of dish. It's truly like Wednesday night. You can throw that together. It's so good just with like a, you know, a bowl of white rice or as my mother is having it here with some burdock root tea, which actually is something she would do.

Michele Norris By the way, mom has a very nice manicure in that picture. It looks like she just got her nails did that day.

Eric Kim She probably did. You know, she's like attention to detail kind of person.

Michele Norris Is there in your relationship with your mom a dance that you carefully navigate in realizing that as good a cook as she is, you might become just as good a cook, or maybe better?

Eric Kim I feel like my mom has already given me that sort of torch. I don't want it. And I don't believe it because, like, I think there are things that she makes that I can't make yet. And so I always believe that cooking is really just it's, you know, sometimes it is kind of a muscle that you get better at. The more you do it. But taste and like flavor and seasoning and ingenuity, like I think those things are kind of inherent in the person. I've thought a lot about this. Can you learn to cook? And I do think you can learn to cook, but you can't teach taste. And my mom has taste.

Michele Norris I have loved talking to you about your mama's kitchen. What is it about that space that leaves an imprint on us? How was the time that you spent as a young person? And then going back again on this pilgrimage to write this cookbook, how has that shaped you and the person that you've become?

Eric Kim It's a pretty question. I think this interview made me sort of think back on how it didn't even matter which house it was. All the kitchens were kind of the same, they're laid out the same. Because the person who was leading the kitchen was the same woman, you know. So my mother was the one putting always putting the sesame oil in the bottom left, you know, cabinet. Like, why didn't we put it in the top? Like, that's what I do now as an adult in my kitchen. But everyone has their own rhythm, and it's just interesting that all the houses bleed into each other for me because it was her domain, you know? And it takes like coming out of your mother's, like, kitchen domain to really figure out what your own is, because I think every individual adult can have their own if they enjoy cooking, if it's part of their life.

Michele Norris I have loved talking to you.

Eric Kim Oh, same.

Michele Norris Thank you so much.

Eric Kim Thank you so much for having me.

Michele Norris The book is called Korean American Food That Tastes Like Home. I've been talking to Eric Kim. Eric, thanks so much.

Eric Kim Thank you.

Michele Norris I don't know about you, but I'm going to try that kimchi. And I'm going to try burping that baby. We'll see how that goes. Well, Erik story reveals something beautiful and how relationships evolve over time. Whether it's a parent, a sibling, a friend or a coworker, maybe someone you don't feel particularly close to, someone who's gotten on your nerves. Well, that relationship always has the potential to evolve and to grow. Sometimes we need to do something a little dramatic to jumpstart that change. And I'm not advocating for running away from home to visit a cousin in the family car, but sometimes distance can provide a clearer vision and a clean slate. Eric was fortunate to have a mom like Jean, who understood he needed to leave so that he could also feel the need to come back home, and to share everything he learned along the way over a good home cooked meal.

If you were up for trying Eric's kimchi or kimchi jjigae at home, that's the kimchi stew, you can find the recipe at our website, yourmamaskitchen.com, and we want to hear about your experiences. So share your pictures, your kitchen tips, and your interpretations of this delicious Korean American food.

Michele Norris Thanks so much for listening to Your Mama's Kitchen. I'm Michele Norris. See you soon.

Michele Norris This has been a Higher Ground and Audible Original produced by Higher Ground Studios. Senior producer Natalie Rinn, producer Sonia Htoon. Additional production support by Misha Jones. Sound design and engineering from Andrew Ethan and Ryan Kozlowski. Higher Ground Audio's editorial assistant is Camila Thur de Koos. Executive producers for Higher Ground are Nick White, Mukta Mohan, Dan Fierman and me, Michele Norris. Executive producers for Audible are Nick D'Angelo and Anne Heppermann. The show's closing song is 504 by the Soul Rebels. Editorial and web support from Melissa Bear and Say What Media. Talent booker Angela Peluso. Chief content officer Rachel Ghiazza. And that's it. Goodbye, everybody.

Copyright 2024 by Higher Ground Audio, LLC. Sound recording. Copyright 2024 by Higher Ground Audio, LLC.