Michele Norris Oh stop, stop.

Natalie Morales I read all your stuff.

Michele Norris We're just two girls who tell stories, right?

Natalie Morales We do, but you tell some of the best stories.

Michele Norris Well, I get to tell some great stories because I ask people to go down memory lane.

Natalie Morales Yes.

Michele Norris And tell us about the kitchens that influenced their lives, the people that influenced their lives, and how those spaces still live in them. And you have had such an interesting background. You have traveled all over the world. You were born in Taiwan. You lived in Spain for a time. You are a multilingual. You speak Portuguese and Spanish. And you are fluid in terms of your culinary skills. Also, you published a cookbook, and the cookbook seems to sop all of that up.

Natalie Morales Yeah.

Michele Norris All those influences. So I want to begin where we always begin. Tell me about your mama's kitchen. And where do you go in your mind when I ask about that? Which country? Which locale does your mind go to?

Natalie Morales I think given that my dad was in the Air Force, and so every 2 to 3 years we would move pretty much on the regular. But my most formative years were Madrid, Spain, when I was 12 to 17. So when you ask me, where do you go in your mind? That's the kitchen, I think of our kitchen in Madrid, Spain. And that is really where I formed my culinary tastes, where I picked up the Mediterranean way of living and eating, but then also being able to travel we were very fortunate to be able to pick up and go. When you live in Europe, it's easy to hop a train or take a flight. And we traveled quite a bit. And my dad, that's his still, it's his wanderlust. He too, you know, he travels as often as he can and my mom tags along with him. Still begrudgingly sometimes. You know, she has grandkids she'd rather stay home with. But that's the kitchen I always like to think back to.

Michele Norris That sounds pretty fabulous. So tell me about, your father was in the military. What led the family to Madrid, and were you in military housing or were you living in civilian?

Natalie Morales No, we were living in civilian housing. My dad, at the time, had the equivalent of what was sort of a diplomatic job. And he, you know, was working with a group that was a bunch of different what they called joint U.S. military groups and, based in downtown Madrid. And we lived off base and lived, you know, like teenagers living in the middle of Madrid. And I was able to go to the American school in Madrid, but it really was an international school. It was incredible because a lot of my friends were, you know, Spanish speakers, Italian speakers. So I feel like I got a lot of that cultural influence just by being around all these different kinds of cultures and friends with different backgrounds.

Michele Norris So high school was like the UN.

Natalie Morales It was a little bit. Yeah.

Michele Norris So if I'm imagining that kitchen in Madrid, am I correct in thinking that there was probably a lot of tile?

Natalie Morales There's tile everywhere.

Michele Norris Describe it for me.

Natalie Morales Yeah. You know, it's interesting. There were windows that you could see out into a courtyard because a lot of Spanish homes, they're not big homes. These were really townhomes close together. And, but everything is surrounding, you know, a little courtyard in the middle. And so we could look out on the courtyard, the kitchen door would open up to the courtyard. And so I just remember my sisters and my mom, we would, you know, I have two, two sisters. I'm the middle. So we would always.

Michele Norris So there's a whole conversation about that and we will save that for later.

Natalie Morales Oh yeah, we would always Yeah, we would always make meals. All of us cooking and being around. It was a pretty small kitchen, you know, there was not a lot of real estate.

Michele Norris European kitchens tend to be small

Natalie Morales European kitchens… Yeah. And, you don't spend a lot of time in the kitchen. You spend a lot of time in the dining room or other areas. Is different than it is here in the United States, where when you have guests over, you spend all your time in the kitchen. You know, you try to get everybody outside of the kitchen, but people tend to stay in the kitchen over there. It was more, let's go sit at the living room in the dining room and hang out outside. So.

Michele Norris So your mother's name is Penelope?

Natalie Morales Yes.

Michele Norris Was she a good cook? And was she trying to make sure that even though you were living in distant lands, that you were holding on to American traditions as well?

Natalie Morales My mother is Brazilian and my father's Puerto Rican. But because as a military housewife, she moved around so much, she, I think, picked up a lot of different culinary habits and cuisines. And I think that was also part of her love of wanting to assimilate and be a part of whatever culture she was living in. For example, when I was born in Taiwan and when my mom moved there with my father, my dad was stationed in Vietnam at the time. But they were able to, go there to Taiwan. And my mom, to this day says it was one of her favorite places to live. The people were so kind, beautiful culture, wonderful sweet people. And she learned to cook a lot of Chinese food and at the time, and Taiwanese different kinds of, you know, Taiwanese delicacies. And so wherever she went, she tried to pick up something. And so to this day, she still does that. But of course, being Brazilian, there's a lot of South American cuisine. We all, my sisters and I, we love our empanadas. We love our feijoada. We love, our croquette. That's all the South American Latin foods. But also, my grandmothers had a strong influence in our cooking as well, like my Puerto Rican grandmother. So there's a lot of arroz con Condoleezza Rice and ropa vieja and more of the Latin side that my mother makes as well. So again, it's wanting to blend in. That's my mother's way of as a military housewife, wanting to assimilate and fit in and be a part of that culture.

Michele Norris Was that common among the military housewives? Because one of the things that I've learned, I don't come from a military family. My father was in the military, but had long left by the time he had me and my sisters. That there's a high level of expectation around entertaining and military families, especially if one of the spouses is sort of moving up through the ranks.

Natalie Morales Yeah.

Michele Norris Were other families doing that, or was your mother a little bit unusual in that she was cooking the food of a culture that surrounded her?

Natalie Morales You know, I think there's a little bit of that expat culture where when you're living abroad, you tend to become friends with the community and the people around you. And my mother was and still is always one of those people that loves to make friends with the neighbors. And even if she doesn't speak the language, she tries and tries to learn how to communicate as best she can. She finds a way, and sometimes the best way is through food. And she loves to learn, whether it's arts and crafts or teach me a recipe. And that was something, you know, living in Spain, for example, our neighbor made incredible gazpacho and she, you know, invited her into her kitchen and said, show me how you make your gazpacho. I want to I need to learn how to make this. And it's in my cookbook. It's one of the easiest recipes there is. And so there was always, you know, I think that connection that is formed around the table, I think, is it's the greatest way to communicate with people. It's, you know, as I say, when you break bread, you you break so much more with somebody else. You're essentially almost holding hands with people across the table.

Michele Norris I'm going to ask a sensitive question, but it's something that is common among military families. They have to make their dollar go a little bit farther.

Natalie Morales Oh, yeah.

Michele Norris Because of the pay structure within the military. How did that play out in your kitchen?

Natalie Morales Oh, a lot. Absolutely. My dad was the breadwinner, and he rose to the ranks as a lieutenant colonel. But, my dad is still very savvy when it came to putting away his money and investing and was very good about that.

Michele Norris He was a saver.

Natalie Morales He stretched that dollar, let me tell you, it was painful for us, those of us, you know, wanting nice clothes and having three girls wanting to dress like our friends. We didn't have that, it was more my shop, the thrift stores, and learned how to put outfits together, which to this day, people always like, oh, you have such a great sense of style. And I kind of credit that with being able to go to a thrift store and being able to put something together on pretty much $5.

Michele Norris And that’s what you were doing… at that time?

Natalie Morales Because that’s what we did. But my mother, yes. And my mother still to this day lives on a budget. My dad gives her a certain amount. And this is for the groceries. This is for the house. This is for the spending. And he was able to retire early, though, and that goes to show you that he knew what he was doing. And the rest of us could have learned a thing or two from him.

Michele Norris How did that play out when you were outside of the house? Did that mean that you didn't take as many family adventures that you figured out how to do things…

Natalie Morales No, you know–

Michele Norris And still…

Natalie Morales We were never...

Michele Norris Save money.

Natalie Morales No we were never for the lack of, you know, it's not like we missed out on anything. In fact, we traveled more, I would say, than most people. But that was, you know, we would take MAC flights for $10. I don't if…

Michele Norris What's a MAC flight?

Natalie Morales A MAC flight is a Military Airlift Command flight.

Michele Norris Okay. Like I wouldn't know that. I was like, is there an airline I don't know about called MAC airlines?

Natalie Morales No exactly. This is the best thing ever. When you're in the military, your dependents can travel with you for $10. So this is what we how we would travel throughout Europe instead of, you know, hopping an American Airlines flight on the weekends. My dad would be like, let's go see what if we can hop a flight to Germany? And if there happened to be an aircraft going to Germany, we would get on the parachute seats and they were actual like–

Michele Norris Oh so you would sit on the side of the plane.

Natalie Morales On the side of the plane, and they had like little box lunches with the whoopie pies and the whatever, you know, cold fried chicken inside. And that's all you got. But it was so much fun as a kid. It was the greatest experience and we traveled all over the world doing that. And you know, for that I was so lucky. I don't think I missed out on anything. That's the greatest gift I think my parents could give me is that military upbringing and that lifestyle. It really opened my eyes to the world. And it informed me at such a young age that the world is a much bigger place. And there are people out there that you need to know, and you need to be able to meet them and see them and tell their stories. And that's why I became a journalist.

Michele Norris And when you became a journalist, because you were moving constantly every couple of years, setting up house in a new place, setting up in a new school, meeting new people, always the new kid. Does that help you as a journalist and as a storyteller?

Natalie Morales I think you know the answer to that. I mean, you basically have to assimilate wherever you go, and you also have to be able to think quickly on your feet. You have to adjust quickly. If somebody says, I'm sorry, we can't do the interview right now, are you going to have to do it over there? You have to be able to go with the flow. And that was my whole upbringing, was going with the flow. I have a professional degree in going with the flow. (laughs) Being able to just pack a bag and go, I mean, that's how much.

Michele Norris How much notice would you get when the family was moving?

Natalie Morales You know, they would tell us like it was always I would say like January or February. My father would say, oh, they're thinking about moving us to what do you all think? And it was like, okay. And the only time where there was a what was when, it was between my junior and senior year, we got moved from Madrid, Spain to Dover, Delaware, and we did it. My dad had two options. He was getting ready to retire, and one of the options was, I have to go back to Delaware or. And, this was during the Gulf War, and he was helping with that mission to help, in that he's like. Or the other option is I go lead this base in Rota, Spain, and I can't bring the family. You would have to go to boarding school and finish your school somewhere else anyway. And I didn't want to be away from my family, so. Yeah. It was hard. But you know what, again, you learn to survive and sacrifice. And, I think anybody who's grown up in the military knows we're stronger for it in the end.

Michele Norris Yeah. Yeah. So you parachuted into a high school in Dover, Delaware in your senior year?

Natalie Morales Yes (laughs). From Madrid.

Michele Norris What was that like?

Natalie Morales It was… it was, culture shock. Yes. I mean, I actually–

Michele Norris What was most shocking?

Natalie Morales You know, I think I had lived in Delaware before. I lived there when I was in fourth to sixth grade. So in my head, I was very happy and very comfortable to go back to the States. The idea of going back home sounded amazing. Friday Night Lights, football games, cheerleaders. What I didn't realize was here I am in the middle of applying to colleges and where I was in that process and moving and how difficult that would be in that process and explaining all of that. But at the same time, picking up my life and making new friends, having to carry on and starting over at the same time, kind of picking up where I left off, but trying to, again forge new friendships at such a crucial time in my life where I'm supposed to be looking ahead to college. So I was thinking, you know, I could have been the valedictorian of my senior class. Instead, I have to start over, they don't know where to put me. So it was all learning as I went.

Michele Norris So I've actually seen, I don't know why, but in my travels as a journalist, I've actually seen the pamphlet that they give to families when they move. And there's a lot of advice for the spouse that's holding it down, which is usually the woman. Yeah. Was there any kind of official advice that they gave the kids as you were moving into these new schools, in these new environments?

Natalie Morales Not really. I mean, I think that's thank goodness for my mom.

Michele Norris Other than get with the program.

Natalie Morales Thank goodness. Thank goodness for my mother. I mean, my mother was that rock. She stayed home with us and really allowed us to always feel like she could make home anywhere, no matter where we moved to.

Michele Norris So no matter where you moved to. What was dinner on a Tuesday night like?

Natalie Morales It could be anything. I mean, it could be. Usually it was, you know, some form of chicken or steak or empanadas, black beans, rice. I would say black beans and rice are very popular in my family. You know, just being Brazilian, but also Puerto Ricans. We love beans and rice. It's a staple, but typically, my mother always has a way with making something out of nothing. And there's a lot of leftovers that she would make incredibly, into a whole new meal the next day or two days later. Lasagna is a favorite of hers as well. So my mom's lasagna was pretty famous. In fact, I remember living in Spain and my parents having a lasagna party where everybody came with their best lasagna, and my mom used, a store bought canned sauce and ended up still winning the competition of all the lasagnas. Yes. So her lasagna was pretty darn good.

Michele Norris As someone who is Puerto Rican and Brazilian and American, what was your identity journey like?

Natalie Morales People always ask, where are you from? Like where? What do you consider yourself? And it was always and it still is a difficult question for me to answer when people ask, you know, where's home? When I was younger it was interesting people even asking the question, you know, where were you born? And I remember struggling with that because I was born in Taiwan and a lot of people were like, where were you born? Like they didn't know where that was. I remember my friends, I mean, young kids, not really understanding and having to explain and why were you born there? That's so weird. So I remember, just to make things easier, telling people, I'm from Los Angeles.

Michele Norris Even before you were from Los Angeles? You were just making it up?

Natalie Morales I was making it up. I was like, you know what? I'm just going to make life easy. But yeah, I had a hard time with that. And I think it's interesting now that I live here now, I could say, oh yeah, that's where I'm from. And my kids say that now. Even though they were both born and raised in Hoboken, New Jersey, for the longest time. So yeah, but now I think we all identify with LA.

Michele Norris You said you had a hard time with it. Is it actually a case where you had a hard time with it, or that was it a case where people had a hard time figuring out what category or what box to put you in? Is she Puerto Rican? Is she Brazilian? Is she Latina? Is she Asian because she was born in Tijuana?

Natalie Morales Yes. I mean, I had so many job interviews where because I am trilingual and I speak fluent Portuguese, both my parents speak Portuguese to each other at home to this day, I speak Spanish from living in Spain and, you know, my grandparents being in Puerto Rico and all my family in Puerto Rico and many summers there. And I think people would look at me and say, well, you look very European. So, yes. They couldn't put me in a box. I think that's the struggle that a lot of us feel though. Who are… you look at us and we maybe don't look like what you picture a stereotype to look like, which is I've tried to educate people on this so much. I mean, you know, I was once told by a boss, believe it or not, you know, we need more Morales, less Natalie. And this was... Yes. Yeah.

Michele Norris We're on the radio, so you can't see my expression right now, but MMM…

Natalie Morales Yeah, disdain, disgust and disdain. I can tell you with that, because exactly it was, you know, inconceivable.

Michele Norris And what were you supposed to do at that point?

Natalie Morales Yeah. No, I, you know, there's no trying to be something other than who I am and it's interesting because I think as journalists we love to explore identity so much more because there are a lot of us who see this problem in America where people don't identify with that certain category or check that box and I think that's been a constant occupation for a lot of us is why? Why do we have to fit into that mold?

Michele Norris A box of fixed certitude. The reason I asked you that question was because you said you struggle with it. And it seems that many times it's not the individual that struggles when it's all the people that are around them.

Natalie Morales You're right.

Michele Norris That struggle with trying to figure out where do you fit? What are you supposed to be?

Natalie Morales And having to explain to people like, why do I have to explain that to you?

Michele Norris When did you discover a love of cooking? Because I have your cookbooks with me, and people who are listening should grab this At Home with Natalie. There's a beautiful picture. Do you… You don't actually dress like this when you cook, do you?

Natalie Morales Uh, no (laughs).

Michele Norris Okay. Because, you were looking very elegant…

Natalie Morales In a bright yellow shirt.

Michele Norris And good on you if you do but…

Natalie Morales There would be splatter of oil and grease all over that bright yellow shirt.

Michele Norris But it's clear from the book how much you love cooking and how comfortable you are in the kitchen. Were you always comfortable in the kitchen?

Natalie Morales I think that that came with just growing up and always helping my mother out in the kitchen. My sisters, as I said, you know, I'm the middle. Every holiday is a family affair of food. And okay, my now my whole family lives in Florida. So unfortunately I don't get to be there for the holiday festivities as much as I used to. But it was always, okay, you're going to make this, you're going to bring the turkey, you're going to bring the sides, you're going to bring the flan, and you're going to bring the whatever it was and everybody contributed. But growing up, it was helping my mother in the kitchen. It was never a solo thing for her. We always, pitched in and helped out. And just through osmosis, I was able to pick up on recipes and learn how to make the right flavor combinations. And I never realized that I was actually good at it, I think until I moved into my own apartment in New York City for the first time and started having dinner parties with people and having friends over. And people were like, Natalie is the best cook. Let's go to Natalie's place. Yeah.

Michele Norris There's something that happens when you do that, when your friends figure out, oh, she can cook. We're just going to hang out at her house all the time.

Natalie Morales It was always, you know, oh, we're coming to your place. And she always has more wine. So let's go to Natalie's place. I still to this day love to host.

Michele Norris Do you let people in the kitchen with you, or are you one of those people who your kitchen is a no-fly zone?

Natalie Morales No. I love when anybody comes in and steps in and wants to help out. That's great. The only thing is, when my husband steps into the kitchen, I'm like, okay, you know, he does his thing.

Michele Norris Is he a cook also?

Natalie Morales He's not. So I have to sometimes.

Michele Norris Does he get in the way?

Natalie Morales Yeah, a little bit and I have to oversee a little bit too and make sure that he's, you know, doing it my way. Which I mean, as long as he's doing it, it's great. And wanting to step in. I mean, I give him salad duty most nights.

Michele Norris So I'm trying to figure out how you had time to cook because you worked for TV. You worked at NBC for a very long time. You now have a talk show which, you know, requires a lot of your time and attention. How did you find time to cook? And your kids are now young adults. So you were juggling quite a lot, and yet it sounds like you still found time to stand at the stove.

Natalie Morales I prefer actually, I think it's faster to stay home and cook than it is sometimes to have to get dressed up, go out to dinner with the kids, take everybody out. I mean, yes, we'll order in on occasion, but even then, like, it's never as good.

Michele Norris Your views on takeout?

Natalie Morales Takeout in LA. It's not as good. I mean, in New York takeout was fantastic, but here it's, you know, we struggle with finding good places. I mean, we have like 2 or 3 that and that's about it.

Michele Norris Yeah. Takeout in New York. Can we just say a word about that takeout in New York City? I've never lived in New York City, but I spent a lot of time there. And it is an art. I mean you’ll order. I don't know if they zip on some zip line straight to your apartment or something like that, but if you order and it is like there in a minute and they figure out the packaging. Yes.

Natalie Morales So everything is just as it should be without getting soggy and it stays warm and yes, it's incredible.

Michele Norris Yeah, yeah. If you've ever done takeout it's just a different thing.

Natalie Morales Right, right.

Michele Norris And everyone else seems to struggle with it.

Natalie Morales So for me the answer is it's easier to be home and it's easier to cook. And actually our family is all, we're all very healthy people. My kids love to work out. They're boys, they want to be fit and trim. So they want a lot of protein. And, you know, a lot of clean carbs. So I'm more limited in what I can make them because they want things a certain way now. But and same thing with my husband, but.

Michele Norris So, wait, your kids. They're not asking for Twinkies and Doritos.

Natalie Morales No, I don't have those kids. They don't eat junk food. I know it's crazy clean carbs. Yes. Like, you know, they want whole grains and…

Michele Norris Farro?

Natalie Morales Couscous and quinoa. (laughs)

Michele Norris You have those kids. Okay.

Natalie Morales I have those kids. Yeah, I don't know. They're LA kids, I guess. I don't know.

Michele Norris Do the boys’ friends want to come to your house, or are they instead, I'm going to go to the house down the street where they have the Doritos.

Natalie Morales I know we still get the pizzas for the boys. You know, when the friends are coming over, it's like, okay, we're going to eat like them. You're going to we're going to get hamburgers and pizzas.

Michele Norris You know, some of us love the food that we grew up on. But when we look back at the diet that our families put together. As much as you love it, you think where they tried to kill me.

Natalie Morales Yeah.

Michele Norris What were we eating? It was so good. But it wasn't always good for us.

Natalie Morales Right.

Michele Norris Was that true of the food that you grew up on?

Natalie Morales I would say Latin food is known to be fried, very salty, but I would say the frying part a lot of grease. So I actually in my cookbook, I make a lot of healthy substitutions. And I, for example, I bake my empanadas, I don't fry them. I have a mac and cheese where I use cauliflower and butternut squash and add less cheese, but it still has a lot of flavor. So I do a lot of things where I have found ways to again, find good substitutes without sacrificing the flavor. But yeah, Latin food is not healthy at all.

Michele Norris So what tastes like home to you when you think of a recipe that your mom used to make, or that you used to enjoy in your mama's kitchen? What comes to mind?

Natalie Morales I always think, and it's still my signature dish. And I've taught my son to make it. And my oldest. I'm hoping my youngest will eventually learn to make it too. It's our flan.[3] [4] Everybody.

Michele Norris I love a good flan.

Natalie Morales My sisters, we all make flan. And it's fantastic. It's such an easy recipe. I've made this so many times, so many variations. I've made mango flan, pumpkin flan for the holidays. It's a super easy recipe.

Michele Norris And you have the variations, coconut flour, in your cookbook, again it's called At Home with Natalie. But you know, if you've only had flown in a restaurant or if you've only had it at someone's house, you say it's easy, but it doesn't read easy. And you might think, how do I get this consistency? How do I get that perfect layer of caramelization on the top? And just enough of that little bit of liquid? And what kind of device am I supposed to cook this in? So walk us through this quickly about how easy it actually is and where the trick points are.

Natalie Morales Yes. I mean, I would say the most difficult part is the caramelization. And that really is I think the best tool for that is a double boiler, which is a pan-within-a-pan insert. The bottom pan has just a little bit of water and then you put the insert inside. Now you can get the same with what they call, we call it bagno maria in Spanish or Portuguese also. And that is just flat like a pan in the oven filled with a little bit of water. And you can use what is a pie tray, and you can put your flan and caramelize your sugar in that inside the oven at a low temperature. I think it's harder to get that the right way. I think it's harder to get the caramelization just perfect that way. Double boiler is very easy to find on Amazon. I've found mine many times and my mom gave me one when I remember when I got my first apartment in New York and I still have it. It's the best gift.

Michele Norris The double boiler.

Natalie Morales The double boiler. Yeah.

Michele Norris I love an individual dessert. I mean, as I like pie and I like cake and I like other things that are communal that you cut up. But I love, like, a flan or creme brulée. It's all yours. You have to share it with anybody. It just comes in, it's all yours, so small…

Natalie Morales Little ramekins.

Michele Norris Little small glass dish or porcelain.

Natalie Morales And you can get that same again with the little ramekins. You just put the sugar on the bottom, put it in the oven with a in a tray of water underneath. And let the caramelization happen first. And then you pour the mixture. It's basically evaporated milk condensed milk, eggs, vanilla and that's pretty much it.

Michele Norris When you serve it how do you garnish it?

Natalie Morales This is the best. You know if you want to really wow your guests. If you're serving this at a dinner party, for example, I always like to leave it in whatever container it's in. And then I do my flip the flan right in front of the guests.

Michele Norris Wait wait, one more time you what now?

Natalie Morales Gonna flip my flan (laughs). You ready to flip the flan? And so you take the tray or the plate, the individual plate, depending on how you're serving it. You put it on the top of the ramekin or the flan portion, and then you just hold it tightly and you literally flip, and it should just pop right out with the caramel flowing right on top just perfectly.

Michele Norris So don't, don't be gingerly about it. And when you're going to flip it, flip it. One move. Flip.

Natalie Morales Note, you just flip it. Flip and flop. You flip and flop it and it'll come right out. It should just pour right out after it's cooled. I mean it has to cool. And I would say let it be in the refrigerator for about, you know, half a day or so just to get make sure it's solid.

Michele Norris Anything—berries, mint sprigs—anything on that?

Natalie Morales You can add. Oh, it's so beautiful if you add, yeah. Berries is beautiful on the side. Just like a creme brulee. However you would like to garnish.

Michele Norris I noted that you do have slightly healthier versions. You can use low-fat condensed milk instead.

Natalie Morales Yes. That's my trick.

Michele Norris Because does the consistency change or the flavor, does that have an impact on that?

Natalie Morales I don’t think so. I have not found it changes anything. Now, you know, the flan purists out there may say they disagree, but my mom uses, there is 2% evaporated milk and there's low-fat sweetened condensed milk, and I've done it that way. I've also used full-fat versions, and I don't think I could tell the difference.

Michele Norris So flan is popular in several cultures. Are there slight variations?

Natalie Morales Oh yes. Yes. I mean I've had it all through Latin and South America. I've had it in Spain, of course, in Spain it's very much of a delicacy, you know, it's their dessert as well. I would say the flan in Spain is perhaps less custardy and creamy. And I think our flan in Brazil and Puerto Rico has a little bit more of that sweetened condensed milk texture. Yeah. I don't know why. I never delved into what the ingredients are that make it different, though, in Spain versus, you know, the flan that that we make.

Michele Norris I road test all the recipes at home. And I look forward to doing this one I've never made. I've had creme brulée made with a little blowtorch, but I've never made flan, so I'm sure yours will be the first one.

Natalie Morales Okay. Knock on wood that it goes well.

Michele Norris And if I don't get the flip right, I'm going to be calling you.

Natalie Morales She said she made it sound so easy.

Michele Norris This has been fun. Thanks so much for coming to the studio.

Natalie Morales Thank you so much. It's been amazing to meet you. Thank you so much. And thanks for letting me go down memory lane.

Michele Norris Natalie’s story reminds me of how food and cooking are so closely tied to identity. Even though she’s had a rather unusual upbringing globetrotting around the world, I think we can all relate to feeling more connected to our cultural identities through food. She said something in our conversation that I want to spotlight: when you break bread with people, you’re holding hands with them across the table. You’re sharing part of your identity with them, or you’re learning more about theirs. Even as people around her struggled to put her in a box of their own perceptions, Natalie knew who she was through it all.

If you want to learn how to make Natalie’s perfect flan, you can find it on my Instagram page at Michele underscore underscore Norris, that’s two underscores. AND you can also find it at our website – yourmamaskitchen.com.

And, we want to hear from you! We’re opening up our inbox for you to record yourself and tell us about your mama’s recipes, some memories from YOUR kitchen growing up, or your thoughts on some of the stories you’ve heard on this podcast. Make sure to send us a voice memo at Y-M-K AT Higher Ground Productions DOT com for a chance to be featured in a future episode!

Thanks so much again to Natalie for coming into our studios at Higher Ground and to all of you for joining me today. Make sure to come back next week because you know us, we’re always serving up something special – and until then, stay bountiful.

CREDITS

This has been a Higher Ground and Audible Original. Produced by Higher Ground Studios.

Senior producer - Natalie Rinn

Producer - Sonia Htoon

Additional production support by Misha Jones

Sound design and engineering from Andrew Eapen and Ryan Kozlowski

Higher Ground Audio's editorial assistant is Camila Thur de Koos.

Executive producers for Higher Ground are Nick White, Mukta Mohan, Dan Fierman and me, Michele Norris.

Executive producers for Audible are Nick D’Angelo and Ann Heppermann.

The show’s closing song is 504 by The Soul Rebels.

Editorial and web support from Melissa Bear and Say What Media.

Talent booker - Angela Peluso

Chief Content Officer Rachel Ghiazza

And that’s it - goodbye everybody.

Copyright 2024 by Higher Ground Audio, LLC.

Sound Recording copyright 2024 by Higher Ground Audio, LLC.