Note: Text has been lightly edited for clarity and does not match audio exactly.
Margaret Hargrove: Hi, listeners. I'm Audible Editor Margaret Hargrove, and I'm thrilled to be here today with one of my favorite authors, Sadeqa Johnson. Sadeqa is known for her sweeping historical fiction stories that navigate issues of race, identity, and resiliency. Her last novel, The House of Eve, was an instant New York Times bestseller, and she's back with another heartfelt and moving historical novel, Keeper of Lost Children. Welcome to Audible, Sadeqa.
Sadeqa Johnson: Thank you so much for having me. It's lovely to be here.
MH: I have to tell you that within the first five minutes of listening to Keeper of Lost Children, I looked over and told my co-worker Tricia, who's also a huge fan of yours, I said, "I know this book is going to destroy me. It's going to destroy me and put me back together, and I will be sobbing by the end of it all." So, thank you for that, because it did happen. [laughs]
SJ: Thank you.
MH: Keeper of Lost Children is a multi-timeline story featuring three interconnected characters. Ethel is a Black American woman living in Germany after World War II, struggling with infertility, when she stumbles upon an orphanage housing mixed-race children. As her story unfolds, we meet Ozzie, a Black American soldier stationed in Germany in 1948 who falls in love with a German woman. And then we have American teenager Sophia Clark, who in 1965 wins a scholarship to a prestigious boarding school, where she uncovers her true identity.
I have to tell you, the way these three characters are connected is so magical and wonderful. I know I'm gushing, but I can't tell you how much I loved, loved, loved this book. But before we jump into Keeper of Lost Children, I first want to chat about The House of Eve, which was released in 2023 and was a huge knockout success. What was that moment like for you? And I'm also curious, did that success change how you approached writing Keeper of Lost Children?
SJ: Well, The House of Eve was the book that made the New York Times bestseller list, and I have to tell you, it has been 23 years in the making for me. That was always my goal when I started off writing novels. My first book is independently published, as they say, and I was always with the goal and with the mindset that I wanted to make the New York Times bestseller list.
So, The House of Eve was the book that did that for me. It was a book that was very personal for me. It was based on stories that my grandmother told me about her own life and getting pregnant with my mom at a very early age and not having the support system and not being able to get married, and what that was like in the ’50s and feeling like the black sheep of her family. It just took me down this rabbit hole of research on what options did women have during this time period, when they found themselves pregnant and alone? What could they do? That was sort of the beginnings of The House of Eve.
My grandmother passed away prior to the book coming out and so it always feels very special to me that the story was inspired by her story, but also that she sprinkled her magic on it for me and that this is the book that made the list.
MH: Coming off the success of The House of Eve, what was your approach to your next book? Did you feel pressure like, "Okay, I have one New York Times bestseller, the next one has to knock it out of the park in the same way?"
SJ: I don't know that I necessarily felt pressure. I think I'm always just afraid. In between books, after I'd put one book out, when Yellow Wife came out, when it was time for me to write The House of Eve, I was really afraid. I just thought maybe I can't do it again. And Keeper of Lost Children came to me when I was almost finished with The House of Eve, and I sort of wrote down everything that I knew and I put it to the side, so at least I had something to go back to when it was time for me to write the book. I didn't necessarily feel like I had something to prove to my audience, but I felt like, for myself, I wanted to do something different and I wanted to do something bigger and better than the last book.
"I think it's important to write about these moments in the past because these voices matter. If I don't give them a voice, then who will? And that really is why I do what I do."
I'm always trying to challenge myself. House of Eve is two POVs and when I started working on Keeper of Lost Children and I got these three characters in my head, I thought, "Oh, well, this would be something different for me, to figure out how to write this book with three points of view, and then one is a male character. Okay. This is a challenge for me." I'm always trying to challenge myself and better myself with each book.
MH: I love that idea. In your author's note, you mentioned that the idea for Keeper of Lost Children was sparked doing your research for The House of Eve. Can you talk about that moment of discovery and what made you realize this was a story that needed to be told?
SJ: I was tucked away at a writer's retreat in the Blue Ridge Mountains in Virginia, and I was probably on maybe about the fifth or the sixth draft of House of Eve, so I was knee-deep in it. I popped into my Google search and I put in “orphans” and “unwanted children” and “homes for moms,” and up popped this movie about a woman named Mabel Grammer. And Mabel Grammer was a journalist. She was American. She married a chief warrant officer in the military, and she went over to Germany. She couldn't have children for herself, and so she found herself a bit depressed. She didn't speak the language. And she stumbled upon an orphanage, and in this orphanage there were brown babies, a product of Black American GIs and white German women. In that moment, she realized that something needed to be done about these children, and she launched what she called the Brown Baby Plan. She wrote articles for the Afro-American newspaper telling American citizens about these children, and she placed over 500 of them in Germany, but also in American homes here.
I remember when I learned of her story, I thought to myself, "Well, how come I didn't learn about this woman in history? Why didn't I learn about her in social studies class? Because this is phenomenal. She changed the face of these children's lives." And in that moment, I knew that I was supposed to write about her.
MH: Can you talk about this idea of blending real historical figures with fictional characters in your book? Ethel obviously is based on Mabel, but how do you approach that balance? What's your process for deciding what to stay true to and where you can take creative license? Where does fact end and fiction begin?
SJ: I try to stay as close to the actual person as possible, but I do the research and I sort of front-load everything in me so that I know like all the important moments that I want to hit, and then I let the fiction kind of take over. My intention is always to honor that person who the story is inspired by, but not be in such a tight constraint that I can't make the story interesting. And so that's where the fiction and the facts sort of balance each other out.
MH: I know you come from a publishing background, so I have to say, your writing is meticulously researched. What is your approach for researching your novels? Is it a combination of, like you said, Google searching? Do you go to libraries? Do you conduct a lot of interviews? How does it all come together?
SJ: For Keeper of Lost Children, I actually went to Germany. I wanted to go and visit the military base that Mabel Grammer lived on. Also, my character Ozzie, he's a fictional character, but he's also inspired by Black American GIs who went over to Germany and stayed and worked. The military base had been dismantled a few years ago, but I was still able to walk the streets. They had a few buildings that were still there, and just breathing the air and just kind of getting a sense of like, “My characters walked this street, my characters breathed this air,” it really did a lot for my imagination.
I went to a bunch of museums while I was in Germany, but I did a lot of research in libraries. I live very close to the Library of Virginia, and so I'm able to go and check out books. I found a lot of online newspaper articles that Mabel Grammer herself wrote, and so that sort of brought me into the time period and gave me the language and helped me figure out how she was thinking as she was moving through this time period.
MH: Did anything surprise you in your research about these children and the impossible choices their mothers faced?
SJ: I think the misconception would be to think that the mothers didn't want the children. When I digged a little bit deeper, oftentimes they gave the children up because they didn't have another choice. I really tried very hard to make sure that that was obvious in the book. The mothers were young, oftentimes. The Black American GIs, if they applied to marry their German brides, oftentimes the US military would deny it because of Jim Crow laws. Even though at that point the military was desegregated, it really didn't trickle all the way down, and so oftentimes they were denied. The women were left to take care of the babies by themselves when the men were sent somewhere else or sent back home. The German government wouldn't really support them because, in addition to the children being brown babies, they were also illegitimate children, and back in this time, in the ’40s and the ’50s, that actually mattered.
"I was writing the book, I was thinking about the voices. I knew from day one that I wanted Adam [Lazarre-White] to be Ozzie. I was like, 'I will do anything. I have to have Adam.'"
So, they didn't have the support system that they needed. Oftentimes, their families couldn't support them, and they had to give their children up. That probably was the myth that I needed to debunk in my research, that the women were just giving up their babies because they were mixed-race. That wasn't it. They loved their children. They were giving them up because they didn't have another choice.
MH: Like you said, this is a piece of history that I knew nothing about. I definitely didn't learn about it in my social studies class, either. I think the same could be said for most people. Why do you think it's important for us to learn these untold stories of the Black experience, and what role do you see historical fiction playing in that education?
SJ: I think historical fiction is very important in the education. Oftentimes, it is way easier to pick up a novel to learn something than it is a textbook. So, I try really hard to make sure that I'm educating my readers at the same time as I'm entertaining them. I think it's important to write about these moments in the past because these voices matter. If I don't give them a voice, then who will? And that really is why I do what I do.
MH: You started out writing contemporary fiction, but your most recent books are historical. Yellow Wife explored slavery. The House of Eve was set in the 1950s, and now Keeper of Lost Children is set between post-World War II Germany and 1960s America. What drew you to switch from writing contemporary novels to historical fiction? Was that a conscious decision or did the stories pull you in that direction?
SJ: It was not anything that I chose for myself at all. I'm an honorary Jersey girl, and so I was standing in my kitchen in Springfield, New Jersey, in 2015 when I heard a voice that said, “Move.” Within three months, we had moved to Virginia. Nine months later, I was on the Richmond Slave Trail and I discovered the story of Mary Lumpkin.
It really felt like the ancestors had called me to Virginia, called me home. My family ties are from the state of Virginia and I felt like I was in the right place at the right time for the story to speak to me, because when I discovered the story of Mary Lumpkin and all that she endured living in the Lumpkin's jail, I could feel the hairs on my arms stand up. Everything in my body was telling me that I needed to pay attention. It really felt like the ancestors got in the car with me and followed me home, because as much as I didn't want to write the story, they were pressing me and pushing me and telling me that this is what I was supposed to be doing next. I thought if I just open the window a little bit and just give it a try, we'll see what happens. And thus, here I am three books later.
MH: There is an Easter egg for fans of The House of Eve in Keeper of Lost Children, which I wasn't expecting, and I won't spoil it here, but it was such a nice surprise. Why did you want to connect these two books? Do you see your historical novels as part of a larger conversation with each other?
SJ: Ooh, that's really good. I never thought about that. Let's go with yes on the conversation with each other. As far as the connections between the two books, I do that for my readers. My readers are often asking me for sequels. I haven't written any sequels to date, but what I can do is carry little Easter eggs from one book to the next. It was such a joy and a pleasure, because this one is even bigger and better than the Easter egg between The House of Eve and Yellow Wife. This was very satisfying for me, and I think my readers will find it as satisfying as I did.
MH: So, like you said, you stepped it up a notch, you have three different characters and you have a more complex structure here in Keeper of Lost Children. We're toggling between the lives of Ethel, Ozzie, and Sophia, and each character is given voice by a different performer. You have an amazing trio of narrators: Karen Chilton, Adam Lazarre-White, and Ariel Blake, who was also a performer on The House of Eve—there's another little Easter egg connection. How involved were you with the casting and what do you think of their performances?
SJ: Oh, I was very involved. Actually, as I was writing the book, I was thinking about the voices. I knew from day one that I wanted Adam to be Ozzie. I was like, "I will do anything. I have to have Adam." I listened to the S. A. Cosby books and I just love his voice, I love everything about him. When I was writing Ozzie, his voice was in my head. So, I knew he was a definite.
When I was working on Sophia, I thought Ariel did just such a beautiful job playing Ruby in The House of Eve. I just loved everything about the way she embodied the character, and I thought she'll do a good job for Sophia. I thought, "Okay, it has to be Ariel." But then for Ethel, I had worked with Robin Miles several times. She's the narrator on Yellow Wife. I really wanted to get Robin Miles, and she was unavailable. I thought, "Oh, my gosh." I didn't have a backup. When I go for something, I go all in. And then they sent me Karen's voice and I thought, "Oh, wow. This could work." And when I listened to the audio of the book, I just thought it was absolutely beautiful. She was the missing piece that I didn't know was needed for the novel.
MH: You also have a piece of the performance. What was it like stepping into the narrator booth to record your author's note?
SJ: Difficult. Way more difficult than I thought it would be. I was tired afterwards and it was like three pages. I was thinking, "How do narrators keep this up for days after days after days?" But I was really glad to do it. The author's note is very near and dear to my heart, and so to be able to contribute in that way was wonderful.
MH: A major theme in Keeper of Lost Children and House of Eve is adoption. What draws you to write about that topic? Is there something about adoption that allows you to explore identity and belonging in a unique way?
SJ: I know, it just keeps coming up, right? I wasn't adopted. I don't have any adopted children. But there is something about unwanted children that pulls at my heartstrings. It's something about the identity and the misplacement and asking the questions why—and trying to figure it out and piecing together family and what family is and what family is not. That just really strikes a chord in me. Mother-daughter is a theme that runs through all my books, and this unwanted child is another thing that I feel like I just feel very passionate and connected to.
"I think I'm also very drawn to young girls who have to fight their way out of a circumstance. They have to find some strength inside of them to overcome whatever situation they're in."
MH: The heart of Keeper of Lost Children is this idea or maybe this question of what makes a mother. Ethel desperately wants to be a mother but cannot have her own children, yet she finds another way to become a mother. And we see many other types of mothers represented in the book. As a mother yourself, did writing this book change anything about the way you see motherhood?
SJ: It didn't change anything in regards to my relationships with my children, but I would say as a daughter, every book helps me to understand my mother a little bit more.
MH: I fell in love with the character of Sophia from chapter 1. Can you talk about how you crafted her voice as a 15-year-old girl navigating such brutal circumstances while maintaining hope?
SJ: I think there's something very special about that tender age between 15 and 17, it’s sort of like that girlhood coming-of-age story. I think I'm also very drawn to young girls who have to fight their way out of a circumstance. They have to find some strength inside of them to overcome whatever situation they're in. When I was working with Sophia, that's who she was.
The storyline with Sophia—she integrates a private boarding school in the ’60s—came to me during my research. I was looking at the way schools operated and I realized that school integration, Brown v. Board of Education happens in the ’50s, but it wasn't until the mid ’60s, the late ’60s, that it happened in private schools, boarding schools, institutions, universities. I thought to myself, "We don't really talk about that. We almost feel like once Board v. Education happened, then we just sort of moved on with history." I thought, "Oh, this is something that hadn't been tapped into."
I read a few books that talked about what it was like for those early students, and I thought this is something that I wanted to explore. It was very easy for me to have Sophia navigate this world being the character that I knew she was already and just kind of merging that together. It really just was a good fit for her.
MH: There are some heavy topics covered in your book, so I just wonder, were there any scenes that were particularly difficult to write or very emotional for you?
SJ: There's a lot of scenes with Sophia, things that she endures as a young girl, integrating schools, the way she's treated, racism, classism, all of the things that happened to her were difficult for me to write. But Ozzie had some difficult moments, too. I could really feel his struggle as a Black man in America, fighting for the US Army and just never really quite getting his due, and the ups and downs that came with that. So, he had a couple of storylines that were difficult as well.
MH: I'm curious, what are you working on next? Do you think you'll continue to explore these hidden moments of Black American history?
SJ: I think I will, at least for the next book. I try not to think too far in the future because it makes me afraid. I'm always afraid. So, it makes me a little afraid to think too far into the future. I really only think about one book at a time, and I sort of stick with them until I'm finished and then I can think about something else. But I do think that the story that's in my head, and it's not anything that I've really had a chance to write out yet, but it's in my belly, and that's usually where stories start. It starts in my belly, and it starts to grow until it's time for me to write it. The one that's sort of sitting there now is definitely another historical, and I think you'll get some of the things that you love about my books. And yes, I probably will destroy you a little bit.
MH: Yes, just make me cry, Sadeqa, please. I love to cry at the end of a book. Well, Sadeqa, thank you so much for your time today. You are the master of historical fiction. Thank you for giving us this beautifully written and immersive story that sheds light on an unknown history that is so full of courage, so full of love and hope. Listeners, Keeper of Lost Children by Sadeqa Johnson is available now on Audible.
SJ: Thank you so much.
