Pony Learns to 'Stay Gold' in This YA Novel

Note: Text has been edited and may not match audio exactly. 

Kelley Sullivan: I'm Audible Editor Kelley Sullivan and today I'm here with Tobly McSmith, co-creator of parodies about The Office, Friends, Saved by the Bell, Parks and Rec, Love, Actually, and author of Stay Gold from HarperCollins, which is out now. His debut novel is about a trans boy navigating a small town Texas high school while going stealth and all the discoveries and challenges that come with that experience. Welcome, Tobly.

Tobly McSmith: Thank you! Thank you for having me. I appreciate it.

KS: I'm so excited to talk to you. Admittedly, I'm already a huge fan and we actually know each other from the publishing world. But to speak to you on the other side, as a published author, is delightful, so congratulations on this incredible debut.

TM: Thank you, Kelley. Yes, we go way back. We go way back.

KS: We do. We do. So, first of all, how are you? What is your new normal looking like in this quarantine life? What's going on?

TM: Thank you. Yes. It's been a little nuts. I live in Manhattan, so I felt like the lockdown really happened. All those musicals that you mentioned, we had four shows going at once that all closed within the same week, which was really hard. There was one in the UK. There was one in Vegas. There was a tour in the US and in New York. Two of the cast came down with COVID. Several of them. It's been scary. But having a lot of time at home has given me a lot of time to write. There's the upside, I suppose.

KS: Yeah, silver lining. Silver lining. I want to dive right in and talk about Stay Gold. [The title is a nod to The Outsiders reference to Robert Frost’s poem "Nothing Gold Can Stay."] First, I want to talk about the incredible cover. I thought it was so fun and evocative of the vibe of the book. Did you have input on the illustration and how that came together? Tell me more.

Audio has always been a beautiful medium for reading... it also enters the mind in a different way. The book sits with you in a different way.

TM: I love the cover, too. I think it is so beautiful. Yes. HarperCollins let me work really closely with them and give all the ideas about the cover. We worked with an artist named little corvus. They are amazing and they did a great job. We looked at several sketches and directions and we went with that. I saw Pony in that picture. And Georgia. I see them so clearly, the characters I wrote, in that cover and I think that's what makes it so special.

KS: Absolutely. No, I loved it. From the moment I saw it I was like, "This book is fun." I wanted to pick it up immediately. I wanted to start listening to it immediately. It really had this great appeal visually already. So I just mentioned it, and it's no secret you've written parodies for stage, but what inspired you to write a novel and why this story in particular?

TM: Good question. I, as you mentioned earlier, have worked in publishing. For 16 years, I worked at HarperCollins and, two years before that, at my university press. We published books about coyotes and doll-making. Books have always been incredibly important to me and such a powerful medium to talk about things.

One day at work, when we were talking about young adult books, this idea kind of came to me—this was a couple years ago—of this narrative of this trans boy as the main character. It wasn't something that I saw a lot two years ago. I didn't see a transgender main character enough. There's more coming now and that's so exciting, but in that moment, I wanted to take the experiences that I had gone through and put them in this book for other trans people and also for everyone to kind of understand what it's like and the difficulties of being trans today in America. Especially in Texas, where I grew up.

So that was the inspiration. And I had a lot of people helping me and inspiring me to keep moving on it. Because on top of a day job and writing parodies, I was writing this book at night, between like 9 p.m. and midnight every day, and [I was] just so driven to get it done because the story was so important to me to tell.

KS: Wow. That's one of the questions I had: how were you getting this done while also doing all of your creative work in addition to a job? That takes so much dedication.

TM: That is the million dollar question, right? Or at least a couple hundred dollar question. It's always been a drive that I've had and it's always felt like… As long as you work hard and you believe in what you're doing, you can make it happen. But you have to put in those extra hours. I, years ago, read an interview by a mystery writer who wrote her first novel in between having four or five kids and a job. She would get up at 4 a.m. and write it until 7 a.m., when the kids woke up. The whole first draft, she said she had to can and it wasn't good, so she went back to that schedule and did it again. And I said to myself, "If she can do that, I can do this, too." You just have to be devoted and driven enough to make it happen. And okay with not getting a lot of sleep, too. That's the other thing.

KS: That's incredible. One of the things I really loved about the audio experience of this was how Pony and Georgia were voiced by Theo Germaine and Phoebe Strole. I felt like I knew them. I wish I was friends with them in high school. Did you have a hand in their casting? Tell me more about that.

TM: This is so cool. Because [I've been] working in publishing and directly with digital audio, it's been so exciting to see how different audiobooks pan out and who narrates. I was watching The Politician on Netflix about a year ago and Theo Germaine was on that and I saw Theo and I said, "That's Pony." It was over. That was my Pony in every way. His look. Everything about him. I knew that he could embody that character that I had written. And so when casting came along, they asked me if I had any wishlists and Theo was it. They were able to land him, which was amazing.

KS: Wow.

TM: Yes. I think I did a happy dance. I don't really do happy dances, but that was definitely one. It was just so exciting to have that kind of representation. And Phoebe has done so many amazing audios and she came forward to be Georgia and she had that right voice for it. When I heard her, it felt right. And it felt right with Theo's voice, too. It was just such a cool part of this process. To get to help voice the book.

When I was writing, I said, "If I would've had this at 15, it would've changed my life because I would've felt seen and I would've understood who I am." And I feel so lucky for the kids today who can transition and live their most authentic and wonderful lives. I just want to help create that experience for more people.

KS: Yeah. What did it feel like hearing them bring the characters to life? Once you started hearing some of the work that they were doing, what was that like?

TM: Unreal. I'll be honest: it's hard to hear. It's so hard to hear sometimes. It's wonderful, but it's hard to hear because it's so personal and it's so different. But it's amazing. I've been in theater for a long time, so I've heard my words come out of actor's mouths, but for this one, it's such a personal story. It's such a story involved in real things that have happened to me. That was something else, too. The emotion they put into it is incredible.

KS: Yeah. It felt like I was really with them. Every time I had to pause, I could not wait. Like, "Let me finish what I'm doing so I can start listening again." I loved their work. It was really well done. More to that, what do you feel is special about the audiobook of Stay Gold?

TM: Everything, obviously. It was just such a great experience. And it's such a different one. I've loved audiobooks since I was a kid. I used to have cassette tapes of self-help books I'd listen to. Audio has always been a beautiful medium for reading, especially when you can't read, when you're busy doing something else. But it also enters the mind in a different way. The book sits with you in a different way. That, to me, was so special about it. It's more of an experience. It feels like a performance and I love those.

KS: Tell me, what are some of your favorite audiobooks?

TM: That's a great question. I love and believe in audiobooks so much. The first one I listened to on Audible was Ready Player One. I think that was such an amazing gateway audiobook because I couldn't listen to it fast enough. It was so alive in my head. I think that was the pivotal fiction audiobook for me to listen to and hear and for that whole world to come alive, but to listen to Michelle Obama and to listen to self-help books, which I love, and to have those authors in my ears with their tone and intonations and everything: It just brings this level of awesomeness to a book. So, I love audiobooks; I couldn't be a bigger fan of it.

KS: That's so great. It's so funny, we both grew up in Texas.

TM: Yes, we did.

KS: Random segue, but we both grew up in Texas. I really resonated with the idea, what you brought into this book—this sounds like it's personal to your experience as well—of being in a place where there's not a lot of people that are like you, or look like you or act like you, or where you maybe see yourself as much. How was it describing that experience? That's what I saw it as. I'd love to hear your take on it. What were you feeling and what was it like to really put that into words?

TM: Yes. I love that we're both Texans. I grew up in Austin and I went to college in Lubbock, Texas. Lubbock or leave it.

KS: Oh, I know Lubbock.

TM: I loved college and I love Texas and my family's still there and it’s... I'm sure for you it holds a special place in your heart, even if there were tough parts about living there. What's interesting about this book is, I am nearing 40 years old, right? I'm over the hill. When I lived in Texas and went to high school and college, this was 20 years ago. When things were very, very different for trans people. I've been doing some research and, really, not until about 1995 did LGBT start being talked about, did more trans awareness come about, and I was 15 at the time. The age of Pony.

When I was five, six, seven years old, I would cry when my mom would put me in dresses. I'd push away the barrettes. I did everything that gender dysphoria does for children now, but there was no labels to it. There was no reason to it. I was just called a tomboy and told to get over it and put the dress on. There was so much of my life that was confusing with no understanding of why. And nobody around me that was going through it so that I could see another trans person and say, "Oh, I relate to this experience that you're having and I understand myself more because of it." There was none of that. So I spent so much of my college and high school time in this confusion. I came to New York and it still took me... I transitioned when I was 33, so seven years ago, because there was a lot of stuff I had to work through, from the bias of what I grew up in and my understanding of trans. It took me many years to get to this point.

To write this book and to place a kid into Texas, going through what I've gone through, was such a powerful moment. It was almost like me reliving that moment of my youth in the way that it should have been through Pony, if that makes any sense. When I was writing, I said, "If I would've had this at 15, it would've changed my life because I would've felt seen and I would've understood who I am." And I feel so lucky for the kids today who can transition and live their most authentic and wonderful lives. I just want to help create that experience for more people.

KS: That's so beautiful. I love that idea of being able to relive an experience, but with a new narrative. That's just truly beautiful that you were able to create that. I love that. I was looking at the fact that you created this Stay Gold Fund and I wanted to hear more about that. It sounds like it speaks to exactly what you just described, that experience of wanting kids to have access and be seen and know that there's a place for them. Can you tell us more about that?

TM: Absolutely. So halfway through writing this—it was April of 2019, I think I was in second drafts at that time—our President Trump passed down the ban on the military and trans people serving in the military. That was crushing. Any time we're told we can't do something because of who we are, it's really hurtful. Trump pointed to the high cost of gender-affirming surgeries as the reason to ban trans people from the military, which is... If you do more research, they spend much more on Viagra a year than gender-affirming surgeries, which is frustrating. I realized in that moment, as I'm writing this book about this kid who is wearing a binder, a chest compression binder to flatten his chest and masculinize him, and saving up for his top surgery, his gender-affirming surgery… I realized in that moment that I needed to help and there was a disconnect about how important these surgeries are for people.

Where books go, society goes, too. The books start the conversations.

That's what the Stay Gold Fund... That's why I created it. It is to raise money and give financial assistance for gender-affirming surgeries for trans and non-binary people. Not every trans or non-binary person needs surgery or any healthcare intervention. Every journey is different. But for those who do, the cost is so high and the insurance is so confusing at times, we want to be there to help them with those steps. The second part of it was to remove the stigma around gender-affirming surgeries and show how important they are. There's so many studies about trans and non-binary people that get the surgeries they need and their self-esteem goes up. The suicide rates go down. Depression goes down. It is important for the mental health of trans people, too. I want to also create awareness around the importance of these surgeries for that. So that is where the Stay Gold Fund came from. It's getting its legs. It got a little knocked down with coronavirus. There's so many other things to donate to right now and I understand that, but I can't wait to get in full swing and start really helping.

KS: Cool. And is there any part of the book proceeds that are going towards that fund?

TM: Half of what I get from the book. Half of it. Every dollar to dollar from the book is going into it because that feels right for me to share in the success with the community. And we're going to be doing fundraisers and there's a website: StayGoldFund.org. We're taking donations. I can't wait to make this part of my life work.

KS: That's amazing. I'm so glad to hear that there is an organization like that in the world. We need more of them, so that's fantastic. You've mentioned this before, as an #ownvoices author yourself, how important representation is. What form does that take and how does that representation play out?

TM: In the book?

KS: I would say in the book or just in general. In the industry.

TM: I think there needs to be more stories because when you read a story about something that you don't understand, you understand it a little better. Stay Gold is only one story, but there's more. The more stories we get, the more we can understand everything that trans and non-binary go through. All of that. I think it's about having more and really celebrating that.

KS: Absolutely. We talked about the fact that you were in the publishing industry for 16 years, you said. I wanted to hear more about what this experience has been like for you having been on the other side of the table, so to speak, for so long, for your career, and to make this shift. What was that like?

TM: It's crazy. It was great. My stepfather, he restores old books. I also grew up around a book bindery with these wonderful, old books, and libraries have always been important to me. So every side of books, I feel like I've lived through in some regard, but being on this side, as a writer, it's so surreal. There's a vulnerability. This week, since my book came out, there's so much celebration, but there's so much, like, "Oh my God. The story is out there and people are going to have thoughts about it and people are going to take stuff away and be mad and be happy." It's really opening yourself up in this way that's scary and awesome. That's what's great about it. Also, being on the other side for so many years, I know how much publishing does to support books and make them seen and get them into the right hands in the audience. So my gratitude and understanding of all the work is tripled because I've been there on the other side doing all that, too.

KS: That is so wild. That must be such an experience.

TM: I can't brag about wearing pajamas all day like writers because now we all wear pajamas all day.

KS: Right? That's a bummer. As you've talked about the publishing industry and being in that industry, are you seeing a trend of more inclusivity? Are you anticipating more of it with the work that's being released? Are you seeing hopefulness in that?

TM: Absolutely. What is so wild is the young adult community is so ahead on all of that. I don't want adult books to get mad at me, but... There's a book called... Where We Go From Here. It's about a kid with HIV. There are several books about transgender kids coming out. They cover topics in parachutes with the Me Too stuff. They talk about these issues in such a beautiful way at a point in somebody's life, in their young adulthood, when they can look at stuff and process it and think about it and change and be different from those experiences and live their whole lives differently. YA can get ahead of these things and talk about them in a beautiful way, but I do see it on all sides of publishing. Just more representation. Where books go, society goes, too. The books start the conversations. I hope to see more movies and more TV and all of that... Just more everywhere. But I've always seen books start the conversations.

KS: I agree. I feel the same way. Every time we see titles coming in, I've been more and more excited by the level of inclusivity, diversity, and the voices being heard, especially on the YA level. So that's really cool. Did that speak to you in terms of the genre and knowing you wanted to do a YA title? Was that what the story lent itself to or was that a conscious decision on your part?

TM: Honestly, it was The Hate U Give that really [did it]. Reading that book and watching how it started these conversations and changed things was a beautiful moment. Listening to that, it gave me this moment where I said, "Oh, I can write about a trans kid like this." That was a huge inspiration to see what that book did and how it did it. So I think that's really where it came from. That was an amazing book. Angie Thomas is an amazing writer.

KS: So cool. Love it. Thinking about people, [for] other aspiring writers wanting to make a break, wanting to gain more visibility, specifically trans writers: do you have any advice for those voices, those people that are wanting to be heard? How to get into that mainstream industry more?

TM: Just write. Just keep writing and believe in what you're writing and work hard and create the connections. Find the agents. It's a lot of work to get published, but you can do it. You have to keep going and you have to keep believing in your stories and in yourself. People will follow. Those are my two pieces of advice. Keep going and work hard and believe in yourself and what you're writing. You'll lose that from time to time. There's definitely days I don't believe in myself, but you have to keep doing that and keep finding that in yourself and going.

KS: That's such great advice. Was there a moment when you were writing the book that you really saw the events unfolding and it flowed freely like that or did you have a different approach to where you were building it as you were going, writing it as you were going, in terms of your process?

TM: I wrote in a three-act structure. The musicals we write usually have two acts and I think that way, but movies tend to have three. For some reason I split this one into three. I kept that outline. It's like an IKEA manual to me, where if I would go off track and I'd be like, "Wait, I think I know this story better at this moment." You know, the IKEA thing where then your whole cabinet is broken because you think you have a good idea about how it can be fixed. So, for me, the outline really kept me on track because I'd lose my place. But there were so many surprises and there were a couple of changes. It just kept getting better and kept making more sense. But I stuck to the outline.

My hope is that, years from now, you don't have to be as brave.

It was hard. There were some really hard scenes in there and I bet it's hard for people to read those scenes. They were very hard to write. But I felt like... When you look at the statistics of trans people and our depression and everything we go through, discrimination and everything, it felt like I needed to write those hard moments because they were true to myself, for some of them, and to our community for some of them. Even though it was hard to get there mentally—there was one scene that left me very sad for a whole week—I felt like that was an important thing for me to write and to have in the story. That was the process for me.

KS: You mentioned how writing one of those really took it out of you, made you feel upset or was hard to write. Similarly, listening to it, it resonated and stuck with me. Some of those tough moments made me understand or tried to have an inkling of an understanding of what an experience like that must feel like. I was impressed with the way that you were able to create that moment and a feeling that felt so real and raw and that also had hopefulness. That's such a rare combination to create. How were you able to navigate both of those posts throughout this?

TM: That is good question. And thank you for saying all those things. Hope is so important to me. It's always been important to me. That's what I wanted to leave everybody with. For the two years I've been writing it, trans and non-binary people need allies. We need people that are there to help us and to support us and to make us feel safe. The book centers around the trans boy going stealth, which is hiding his gender identity, and he's doing it, as I have done it at times, to want to move through the world and not feel like you're put under a microscope or you're different. I just wanted to feel like everybody else. And Pony goes through the consequences of everything of going through that. When it comes to trans and non-binary, coming out is something that can not be safe at times and no one should be forced to come out or think that they need to, but it is... It's a brave act. It's a brave act.

My hope is that, years from now, you don't have to be as brave. That's why more books and more stories can help get us there. And more allies. The allies need to understand what we go through and how hard it is to even... For me, to even walk into a bathroom sometimes, I get scared. I'm on defense. The things that are taken for granted like that, I wanted to put that into a book so people understood it and so that people who have also been scared to walk into a bathroom felt that, too. There's a lot of stuff in there like that and I think it's important to write about and it's important to have discussions about and that's what I think this book will hopefully do.

KS: Yeah. Absolutely. It is so real. It feels like such a real, raw picture. I was taken not only with that, but with the sense that you leave this story with the idea that there is hope and people can do better. There is opportunity and you can be yourself. It's such a gift to be able to capture that and give it. So thank you so much.

TM: The hope is such an amazing part and I think that's what we all need to think now. When I was 15, there was a lot of mean words about transgender people. We've come so far in years and we still have places to go, but we have to learn it all together. We have to have discussions and know what's right to talk about and what's wrong to talk about. The hope is that, every year, it gets easier and better for trans and non-binary people to live in this world. That's the hope.

KS: Yes. I agree. So everything is kicking off. This is just the beginning for you. I know your plate is super full, but I still have to ask. What's next for you? Give us the latest, the scoop.

TM: The scoop is I am writing a new book and I'm getting close to the first draft. The quarantine has definitely given me a lot of hours to sit. I'm so excited because it's another YA. It has another transgender main character and it's about theater, which is something I love and have been in for many years in the New York scene. So this kid goes to a FAME, school of performing arts-like school in New York and it unfolds from there. I'm so excited to talk about theater, to have another transgender main character in the world.

KS: That's awesome, I'm so excited. I cannot wait. I can't wait to listen to the next one.

TM: Yeah.

KS: That's so great. Love it. Thank you so much for chatting with me today, Tobly. It's been such a pleasure. I cannot wait to see what you do next. I can't wait to listen to the next book. I want everybody listening to listen to Stay Gold. It's so awesome and such an incredible story and I just appreciate you taking the time.

TM: I appreciate you talking to me. Thank you so much. I love Audible. I love audiobooks.

KS: Thank you, Tobly.