Note: Text has been lightly edited for clarity and does not match audio exactly.
Madeline Anthony: Hi there. I'm Audible Editor Madeline Anthony, and I'm sitting down today with Kate Moennig and Leisha Hailey about their new co-written and co-narrated memoir, So Gay for You: Friendship, Found Family, and the Show That Started It All.
I'm so excited to chat with you guys today. I absolutely love The L Word. It had a huge impact on my life. I was so psyched when I heard the news about the book coming out. So, thank you for being here.
Leisha Hailey: Thanks for having us. It's great to be here with you.
MA: So, a little background for the listeners. Leisha Hailey is an actor, director, and musician, best known for her role as Alice Pieszecki in the iconic series The L Word. Hailey has co-founded two bands: The Murmurs in the '90s, which toured worldwide, including with Lilith Fair, and more than a decade later, the indie pop band Uh Huh Her.
Kate Moennig is a critically acclaimed actor and producer whose body of work spans television, film, and theater. She's best known for her role as Shane McCutcheon in The L Word, but you might recognize her from Ray Donovan, Grown-ish, or one of her many film credits. Most recently she can be seen in the series No Good Deed on Netflix. Together, the pair co-host the podcast PANTS with Kate and Leisha.
So, congrats on the book.
Kate Moennig: Thank you.
MA: I never get to ask this question because we record interviews usually prior to the release date. So, I'm curious, how does it feel to have your story out in the world? How are you guys feeling right now, one week into the release?
KM: The shock wore off. Initially, for me at least, it was a little daunting to think that our lives would be out there for public consumption. But that's why you write a book, and that shock has worn off. Now it just feels like it's just out there in the ether for people to absorb it any way they like.
LH: Yeah, this is the first interview we've done outside of the tour we just did last week since the book has come out, and it's wild because just—what? Eight days ago?—the buildup was kind of daunting to feel like everyone's going to know your life on an insular level. It's weird that it's out there now and you're kind of like, "Okay…” I don't know how to feel, actually [laughs].
KM: I think there's a level of release in not being in control of it any longer, which I appreciate.
MA: Yeah, I could see that. You're like, "Okay, it's out there, do with it what you will."
KM: Exactly. It's done. There's nothing we can do. It's completely out of our hands.
MA: I'm fascinated by memoir as a genre because what you decide to leave out is as important as what you choose to keep in. You're sort of weaving together these threads of your past to create this work of art. So, how do you decide what to home in on and what parts of the story to leave out? Did you know the story you wanted to tell, or did the story take shape as you wrote it?
LH: It actually started taking shape probably a month into it. We knew the theme of the book was going to be around found family and our journeys as queer kids to eventually meeting each other in the adventure we went on together in The L Word. But the literal shape of it really started happening as we were submitting our chapters. I think we owe that all to Hannah, our editor. She started to really map out how it could be told. It really helped us sort of let go and start talking about other things we weren't planning on talking about.
Kate: "We're complete polar opposites. We approach things from a different angle, but we always wind up getting to the same place."
KM: I like how you brought up the things we didn't want to talk about. That's important, because we weren't looking to drag anyone. We weren't looking to have a negative spin on any of it, because we really have no reason to be negative, because we've been so fortunate. There were certain things of course, not everything was perfect, but the purpose of the book was a celebration and an acknowledgement of friendship and found family and growing up queer and how important that is. So, we didn't want to taint that by speaking ill of things and leading to the dark side, because I don't think that really gets you anywhere.
MA: Yeah, I would agree with that. Were there parts, like chapters, that you guys had written that got axed or you were just like, "We're not gonna go there”?
KM: Nothing got axed, but there were certainly edits. You do an edit, you hand it back, then you have to do another edit. There must have been like 10 versions of each chapter. If something I was writing about made me angry, that's not the end goal here, so I just need to work through that in each chapter to get to a place that I'm happy with.
LH: I feel like we did leave out, not leave out, but there were some personal stories, like relationships and stuff that we wanted to touch on but not get too deep because it involves someone else.
MA: I think it's still a fun book and it's super interesting, especially if you're a fan of the show. It is heartfelt without being gut-wrenching. I still teared up. There were moments like, Kate, when you're talking about the first date with your wife, oh, my God, that got me.
KM: Oh, thanks. I'm glad you liked it.
MA: There was definitely a few moments where you get emotional, but you don't need to share all the details. I was also curious in terms of process, were there moments when you’re writing the book and you re-evaluate your life? I assume it's kind of cathartic to write a memoir, you're looking through all your stories. Were there any aha moments or things clicked for you because you're forced to think more deeply about your own journeys?
KM: I feel more of maybe a forgiveness, or I think it's “That kid is okay. It's all right. I shouldn't be so hard on her.” And I wound up, "Oh, I'm not going to be so hard on her. She was just trying to figure it out, and still is."
LH: Yeah, it allows you to have compassion for yourself. I think we're so hard on ourselves in life. I mean, I know I am. You can judge yourself for decisions you've made or how you handled a certain situation, or you look back like, "Oh, I wish I'd done that differently." And when you write about it and you sort of see the through-line, there is a forgiveness. I see what Kate's talking about. You can kind of let go of things. You're just like everyone else; you're just trying to get through it all.
MA: That's really beautiful. Did you guys write together? Or you wrote your chapters separately?
KM: No, we wrote everything separately. We didn't know what that was going to look like initially when we got down to putting together chapters. But we never sat next to one another and we never passed early drafts saying, "What do you think?" It was actually a very insular experience. But we certainly divvied up responsibilities in terms of the things that we did share together. That was just so we don't get repetitive. There was so much to cover as well. We wanted to make sure we could cram in as much as we could.
But then the funny thing happened where we realized after we had been working solo for so long, when we read each other's work, that we realized, "Oh, there is a similarity here." And it started from way back when, without even realizing it. Even though we grew up very differently, there were parallels that started from when we were little.
MA: Wow. I wonder if that's why you guys connected so deeply.
LH: I think that the queer experience can be sort of universal. We all go through something that we can all relate to. There's a shared experience there.
MA: It's really a platonic love story, and there's this way that you guys speak about each other throughout the book where it's obviously not romantic, but it's this reverence and this deep respect and commitment to each other that is so beautiful. And I recognize my own queer friendships in this. I think a lot of listeners will recognize their really profound friendships in this. So, I'm wondering, do you guys have methods for dealing with conflict if it comes up? How do you sustain your relationship for so long?
LH: We both have different things we like about how we handle our friendship. Kate's really into consistency. I mean, you should speak for yourself. Sorry, Kate. I've just really guessed.
KM: Honestly, I've said that word 1,000 times. But you can say it.
LH: Well, but you are. It's important to you that I'm consistent in your life. That I'm somebody you can rely on, and dependable. And for me, it's about, I remember early on when we were in our 30s, if a conflict came up, it was like, "Oh, God, how do I? Can I say that to my friend? Or can I tell her? Can I..." If Kate disappointed me, or if I disappointed Kate, I remember those early conversations being a little awkward and feeling really vulnerable. But now we can literally pick up the phone and be like, "Hey! [laughs] Where have you been? I feel like I'm doing a lot of work right now and you're not..."
Kate: "I do think the biggest missing piece in Hollywood is they don't realize what this audience is. They don't understand the audience, the queer community, at all. They take it for granted."
KM: Yeah, and also maybe what's complementary that I suppose I'm only noticing now because we wrote a book about it and we've been asked this a lot in the last couple weeks: we're complete polar opposites. We approach things from a different angle, but we always wind up getting to the same place. That could seem frustrating at times, and truthfully it is. But also, there's an appreciation as well, because through another angle that I don't see but Leisha sees, "Oh, well, then maybe there's a better solution for it." But we're always going after the same goal. And as long as we have that and we're picking up the slack, it works.
LH: Yeah, and we also we have a lot of businesses together now. Before, we were actors on a TV show, and, really, besides learning your lines and creating the character and showing up for work prepared, everyone tells you where to be and when to be there. The responsibility isn't really on you. And now we have a lot of projects together where it's all on us. So, we're having to show up for each other in a different way as well, business-wise.
MA: I feel like you guys are obviously icons in the lesbian community and people look up to you, but I think now with this book, people are going to look up to you in a different way, in terms of, "Oh, I want friendships that last decades, like them." So, for people in their 20s and 30s, just to hear how you guys navigate that and prioritize each other in this world that's obsessed with prioritizing only romantic love, I think is very cool.
LH: That's a good way to put it. That kind of came to us, too, when we were writing this. How much work it has taken to sustain this with the depth it has. I'm sure Kate and I would be in each other's lives loosely no matter what. But we really do have a family sense, like a sisterly love that goes far and beyond just an acquaintance that you worked with once. How we prioritize that did come to light. And we were like, "Oh, that is interesting." Because we were doing it without realizing it. It kind of helped us focus in on that. That's a subject I think that a lot of people don't talk about, like you were saying. Love relationships are everything, and how do we keep them going? It's just “keep the sex alive” and the romance and everything that we have to do in relationships, but friends sort of are just expected to be there, right?
KM: They're easily taken for granted.
LH: Yeah, and we're like, "Actually, no, they can take a lot more work sometimes."
MA: So, getting into the audio itself, what was the experience like narrating the book?
KM: Fun. I've done audiobooks before, and it was wild to do one that I had written. I understood all of the intonations and I understood the structure, although there were certain words I had trouble pronouncing because it looked better on paper than saying it out loud. I understood the rhythm of it, and it was sort of oddly satisfying, although some moments caught me. But it was satisfying. It was a lot of fun. We did it with a friend of ours at their studio. It was a great couple of days.
MA: You guys recorded together?
KM: No, Leisha did different days.
LH: We asked one of our best friends, Jamie, who works at an amazing studio, if she wouldn't mind doing it. So, we were sort of in safe hands and not just at a strange studio with an engineer we didn't know. Because it felt so personal you wanted someone who knows you inside and out to be able to say whether you're getting it or not.
KM: And she's also in the book, so there were certain times she was like, "Oh, really?” [laughs]
LH: She was like, "Really? I don't think so." [laughs] Because she hadn't read it yet. For me, I lay in bed at night sometimes going like, "Ugh." I'm the girl who always wants to do something again. It's just a classic thing. Acting as well. I'll replay a scene I did and I just want another chance. So, for me, I was like, "Did I get it? Did I read it right?" Because when you write, you can hear it in your head, but when you say it out loud you want to nail that cadence. It was an interesting experience, and I hope people like it.
MA: So, let's talk about the show itself. For people not familiar, The L Word is revolutionary and iconic. The first season came out I think in 2004, but I really believe that if it came out today, it would still be revolutionary. It was produced by lesbians. The creator was a lesbian. A lot of queer actors like yourselves were on it. Aside from that being really unique, the show is so provocative. We have a lot of iconic sex scenes. We have actual lesbian desire depicted. I almost feel like now it's an anomaly, because nothing really came in The L Word's footsteps. Why do you guys think that is? I know it's a really big question, but why do you think that we don't see true lesbian representation in mainstream media?
KM: That's a great question. In a way it's easy to answer and then equally hard to answer, because you'd think that someone would pick up the baton after we finished and, not do the replica of our show, but at least carry on those stories. I blame Hollywood. Hollywood seems to only pay attention to a certain faction of an audience when they're missing out on an audience that would be readily available, provided you give them quality work. And they think that just giving little gay characters and projects in every show is going to satisfy. And it's not. Sadly, we're not in charge [laughs]. We don't make the decisions. I blame the men in charge. I blame the cis men in charge who think they know everything, and they're really out of touch.
Kate: "I don't think our show would ever see the light of day if it was pitched now. And that's really alarming."
LH: I mean, to say it frustrates us is an understatement. It's something that we wish we could crack wide open and solve. Like Kate said, we're not in charge. We do think of a lot of things and try to figure out how to fill those gaps. But I do think the biggest missing piece in Hollywood is they don't realize what this audience is. They don't understand the audience, the queer community, at all. They take it for granted.
KM: Yep.
LH: They think the queer audience is probably easily swayable, you can just feed them little crumbs here and there and we'll be satisfied. I think it's a real disservice, and I think it's really disrespectful. It's so underserved that it's a joke, and I don't know why people don't realize that.
MA: Yeah, I live in Brooklyn, all my friends are queer, and everyone wants lesbian representation. When The L Word was rebooted, which I gasped when I found out, you guys were the ones that made the reboot happen. That's amazing.
KM: We made it happen. We didn't make the reboot.
MA: Right, right, right. You made it happen. But you guys were the seed that started it all. Everyone was so excited. There were all these viewing parties, as I'm sure you know, and we just need it so badly.
LH: And then they just yank it away so flippantly. Just anything queer, it's like the first on the cutting board. I don't know why. Chopping block, whatever you call it.
MA: So, as I was listening to your memoir, I was fascinated to see how interwoven you really were with your characters and that your choices made it on screen. You two, and really the characters you portrayed, are truly iconic within the lesbian community. When I got this interview, my best friend responded immediately, saying, "Oh, my God, I can't believe you're interviewing Shane," calling you by your character's name. So, how does it feel to be so intertwined with your characters? What is the relationship that you both have with your characters now?
KM: I think, listen, if you're lucky enough to be on a show that has stood the test of time, and here we are 20 years later and we're discussing it, that's a compliment. So, if someone wants to call me Kate or Shane, I'm like, “Whatever.” At this point, I don't care. It's just a testament that the show struck a nerve, and that's the kind of work that I think every actor hopes to be a part of. We were lucky enough to have that. So, that wouldn't be a burden by any means.
LH: I also understand the impact it had as a queer person. Like, if I were not on the show, I understand it, but I also understood it on the inside. So, if someone's like, "Oh, my God, this show meant so much to me." I'm like, "I know, right?" I feel the same. I get what it did, and I get what it means.
KM: Especially since there's nothing that really takes its place. I think one thing that surprised us, and reflecting back on it with this book and with all the press we've done in the last couple weeks, is realizing the impact that it had. It was very unexpected. It's wild to think that this all occurred in 2004. And here we are, 20-some-odd years later in 2025, and the landscape in the entertainment business is so different, where I don't think our show would ever see the light of day if it was pitched now. And that's really alarming.
MA: That is alarming. I was going to ask you guys about this anyway. I'm a little younger than y'all, and I'm listening to this book and I'm thinking about how much the political landscape has shifted. Early in the book, Leisha, you are in the East Village and you're getting screamed at in the street with your girlfriend. It's the end of the AIDS epidemic. You're losing people in your community to AIDS, and you describe it saying there's a real defiance to being queer, and queer people were more or less fighting for survival. And then you get cast in this iconic show, there's this incredible reception. There's the New York magazine article with the fabulous title, “Not Your Mother's Lesbians,” which I loved. We gained marriage equality. And then now, obviously, the tables are turning. As of right now, the ACLU is tracking almost 600 pieces of anti-gay and anti-trans legislation. I'm wondering, do you have any advice for young queer people, having lived through such difficult times?
Leisha: "I think thematically the book is finding your people, and I have such a hardcore belief in that. That would be my advice, is whatever you're feeling, all the angst and the anger and fear, don't go through it alone."
LH: The way I/we got through it, my friends and I back then, is we always gathered together. I remember Gay Pride back then felt sort of revolutionary. We would go out and we were just like, "Yeah, this is the day we come out into the streets, and this is our day and we're not going anywhere." It had this power behind it, like I said in the book, defiance. But I didn't do it alone. I never went out there by myself. I think it was the group mentality. And that's what's been so amazing about the queer community. We've always done everything together. I think thematically the book is finding your people, and I have such a hardcore belief in that. That would be my advice, is whatever you're feeling, all the angst and the anger and fear, don't go through it alone.
MA: That's really good advice. Actually, I love that line in the book when you said, "When you find your people, your body knows." I paused the audiobook, I wrote it down. I love that. I'm curious, how rare do you guys think that is? How many times in your life has that happened? Because I feel like for me, maybe three times. It's not too much.
LH: I hope it doesn't happen too often, because that's what makes it so special when it does. Can you imagine if it happened all the time? How many times has it happened for me? Not that many. I might be around you, in the three-to-five range.
KM: Three to five.
MA: Another thing really unique about the book was that I really like reading about your lives, it felt like reading a bunch of different beautiful vignettes, rather than, a lot of times, the heteronormative pipeline is career, marriage, baby. And for you guys, it felt like these different chapters. That was very inspiring to me and kind of freeing. I really liked that. Where do you guys see yourselves next?
LH: We have a lot of things cooking right now. We're trying really hard to satisfy a need out there. We're trying to do it our way, or at least the way we would want something to be done.
KM: It's hard because, someone said to us last week, a great quote: "Don't announce moves, confirm arrivals." Sorry to sound cryptic, but I suppose you'll know when you know.
LH: We feel a real large sense of purpose right now. And maybe it started with the book. No, it didn't, it was before that.
KM: It was before the book, but also, we just got back from the book tour and the response that this book received was really overwhelming. I guess in a certain extent, maybe unexpected. It certainly surpassed the moment I think we both felt it would receive.
LH: I think what it is, Kate, is that it felt bigger than us.
KM: It felt bigger than us. It's exactly what it is.
LH: Bigger than the book. It was really validating to know that we're all hungry for something and we all know it, including Kate and I. That's what really blew my mind. Anyway, we have a lot of things we're working on, so we're not done in any sense in the Hollywood wing of life. But personally, I just want to be able to kind of relax more into life and kind of be able to stop and smell the roses. That's what I'm craving.
MA: So, I have a note here that says, "Moments I literally gasped during the book."
KM: Okay. Let's hear it.
MA: Facts about The L-Word reboot, I gasped at that. That the OurChart was real was very exciting to hear. Also, Kate, when you said Jenny was the best character. Completely agree.
KM: Yes. Thank you. Oh, it's so, so good, thank you. Imagine a show—well, we saw a show without her. Didn't really have many legs, did it? Thank you so much. I agree.
MA: Yes. It's so funny how polarizing that is. I was rewatching The L Word—it's my comfort show, I rewatch it all the time—and I was rewatching it and I was like, "Oh, Jenny's a feminist icon."
KM: Of course. [laughs]
MA: So, I made a TikTok saying that, and the amount of vitriol I got was unreal. I can't tell you guys how many people. I was like, "This is crazy. I had no idea how polarizing it was and how many people hated her."
LH: Imagine how Mia [Kirshner] feels. She lived it the whole time.
MA: Oh, my God. I can't. Are you guys still close with Mia?
KM: Oh, yeah. All those girls. I mean, we don't see them often. Everyone lives in different places.
LH: But we talk.
KM: We talk, and honestly, that bond could never be broken. We all experienced something together. We did our best in the book to put the reader in the environment we were in. It's like sensory overload to really describe it. So, we're always going to have that connection with each other. It's like we all went to Mars together for the first time or something. And we're the only ones who know what it really looks like.
MA: I feel like the book does the same thing that The L Word did, which is it just captures the essence of queer life, which is so hard to really fully capture. It was so great. Thank you both for being here. And for listeners, you can hear So Gay for You on Audible now.
LH: Thanks for having us.
MA: Thank you so much.
