-
The Artist, the Philosopher, and the Warrior
- Da Vinci, Machiavelli, and Borgia and the World They Shaped
- Narrado por: Nigel Patterson
- Duración: 15 h y 12 m
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Resumen del Editor
Leonardo da Vinci, Niccolò Machiavelli, and Cesare Borgia - three iconic figures whose intersecting lives provide the basis for this astonishing work of narrative history. They could not have been more different, and they would meet only for a short time in 1502, but the events that transpired when they did would significantly alter each man's perceptions - and the course of Western history.
In 1502, Italy was riven by conflict, with the city of Florence as the ultimate prize. Machiavelli, the consummate political manipulator, attempted to placate the savage Borgia by volunteering Leonardo to be Borgia's chief military engineer. That autumn, the three men embarked together on a brief, perilous, and fateful journey through the mountains, remote villages, and hill towns of the Italian Romagna - the details of which were revealed in Machiavelli's frequent dispatches and Leonardo's meticulous notebooks.
Superbly written and thoroughly researched, The Artist, the Philosopher, and the Warrior is a work of narrative genius - whose subject is the nature of genius itself.
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John Julius Norwich - whom the Wall Street Journal called "the very model of a popular historian" - has crafted a big, bold tapestry of the early 16th century, when Europe and the Middle East were overshadowed by a quartet of legendary rulers, all born within a 10-year period. Against the vibrant background of the Renaissance, these four men laid the foundations for modern Europe and the Middle East, as they collectively impacted the culture, religion, and politics of their respective domains.
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For the most part, very informative.
- De Paula en 02-05-18
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Augustus
- First Emperor of Rome
- De: Adrian Goldsworthy
- Narrado por: Derek Perkins
- Duración: 18 h y 25 m
- Versión completa
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Caesar Augustus's story, one of the most riveting in western history, is filled with drama and contradiction, risky gambles and unexpected success. He began as a teenage warlord, whose only claim to power was as the heir of the murdered Julius Caesar. Mark Antony dubbed him "a boy who owes everything to a name," but in the years to come the youth outmaneuvered all the older and more experienced politicians and was the last man standing in 30 BC.
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You know my name...say it.
- De Steven en 12-10-14
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Elizabeth
- The Forgotten Years
- De: John Guy
- Narrado por: Alex Jennings
- Duración: 17 h y 15 m
- Versión completa
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Elizabeth was crowned at 25 after a tempestuous childhood as a bastard and an outcast, but it was only when she reached 50 and all hopes of a royal marriage were dashed that she began to wield real power in her own right. For 25 years she had struggled to assert her authority over advisers who pressed her to marry and settle the succession; now, she was determined not only to reign but also to rule.
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worth the credit
- De Lesley en 04-19-17
De: John Guy
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Marquis
- Lafayette Reconsidered
- De: Laura Auricchio
- Narrado por: Grover Gardner
- Duración: 12 h y 44 m
- Versión completa
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A major biography of the Marquis de Lafayette, French hero of the American Revolution, looks past the storybook general and selfless champion of righteous causes who, at the age of 19, volunteered to fight under George Washington, casting aside fortune and family (from one of France's oldest families; his ancestors served in the Crusades and alongside Joan of Arc) to advance the transcendent aims of liberty and justice.
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Lafayette: A Hit Abroad! & A Miss at Home!
- De James en 03-05-15
De: Laura Auricchio
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Cicero: The Life and Times of Rome's Greatest Politician
- De: Anthony Everitt
- Narrado por: John Curless
- Duración: 15 h y 52 m
- Versión completa
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In this dynamic and engaging biography, Anthony Everitt plunges us into the fascinating, scandal-ridden world of ancient Rome in its most glorious heyday. Accessible to us through his legendary speeches but also through an unrivaled collection of unguarded letters to his close friend Atticus, Cicero comes to life here as a witty and cunning political operator.
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An eloquent man, and a patriot
- De Darwin8u en 01-19-15
De: Anthony Everitt
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Edward III
- The Perfect King
- De: Ian Mortimer
- Narrado por: Alex Wyndham
- Duración: 19 h y 32 m
- Versión completa
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Holding power for over 50 years starting in 1327, Edward III was one of England's most influential kings and one who shaped the course of English history. Revered as one of the country's most illustrious leaders for centuries, he was also a usurper and a warmonger who ordered his uncle beheaded. A brutal man, to be sure, but also a brilliant one.
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Great book about Edward III
- De Kiesha en 07-05-16
De: Ian Mortimer
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The Norman Conquest
- The Battle of Hastings and the Fall of Anglo-Saxon England
- De: Marc Morris
- Narrado por: Frazer Douglas
- Duración: 18 h y 10 m
- Versión completa
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An upstart French duke who sets out to conquer the most powerful and unified kingdom in Christendom. An invasion force on a scale not seen since the days of the Romans. One of the bloodiest and most decisive battles ever fought.
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A Balanced, Entertaining, and Informative History
- De Jefferson en 06-01-14
De: Marc Morris
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The Conquering Family
- De: Thomas B. Costain
- Narrado por: David Case
- Duración: 13 h y 30 m
- Versión completa
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Thomas B. Costain's four-volume history of the Plantagenets begins with The Conquering Family and the conquest of England by William the Conqueror in 1066, closing with the reign of John in 1216. The troubled period after the Norman Conquest, when the foundations of government were hammered out between monarch and people, comes to life through Costain's storytelling skill and historical imagination.
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An Entrancing History of the Early Plantegenets
- De Peter en 01-20-09
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Francis I
- The Maker of Modern France
- De: Leonie Frieda
- Narrado por: Carole Boyd
- Duración: 13 h y 7 m
- Versión completa
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Catherine de Medici's father-in-law, King Francis of France, was the perfect Renaissance knight, the movement's exemplar and its Gallic interpreter. An aesthete, diplomat par excellence, and contemporary of Machiavelli, Francis was the founder of modern France, whose sheer force of will and personality molded his kingdom into the first European superpower. Arguably the man who introduced the Renaissance to France, Francis was also the prototype Frenchman - a national identity was modeled on his character.
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Rekindling salamandrine fires...
- De Adeliese Baumann en 09-29-18
De: Leonie Frieda
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The Black Prince
- England's Greatest Medieval Warrior
- De: Michael Jones
- Narrado por: James Cameron Stewart
- Duración: 16 h y 43 m
- Versión completa
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As a child, he was given his own suit of armor; at the age of 16, he helped defeat the French at Crecy. At Poitiers, in 1356, his victory over King John II of France forced the French into a humiliating surrender that marked the zenith of England's dominance in the Hundred Years War. As lord of Aquitaine, he ruled a vast swathe of territory across the west and southwest of France, holding a magnificent court at Bordeaux that mesmerized the brave but unruly Gascon nobility. He was Edward of Woodstock, eldest son of Edward III, and better known to posterity as "the Black Prince".
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Outstanding history
- De Scott en 02-17-19
De: Michael Jones
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Napoleon
- A Life
- De: Andrew Roberts
- Narrado por: John Lee
- Duración: 32 h y 56 m
- Versión completa
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Andrew Roberts' Napoleon is the first one-volume biography to take advantage of the recent publication of Napoleon's thirty-three thousand letters, which radically transform our understanding of his character and motivation. At last we see him as he was: protean multitasker, decisive, surprisingly willing to forgive his enemies and his errant wife Josephine.
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What a dynamo!
- De Tad Davis en 01-16-15
De: Andrew Roberts
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Hadrian and the Triumph of Rome
- De: Anthony Everitt
- Narrado por: John Curless
- Duración: 14 h y 23 m
- Versión completa
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Acclaimed British historian Anthony Everitt delivers a compelling account of the former orphan who became Roman emperor in A.D. 117 after the death of his guardian Trajan. Hadrian strengthened Rome by ending territorial expansion and fortifying existing borders. And - except for the uprising he triggered in Judea - his strength-based diplomacy brought peace to the realm after a century of warfare.
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A Biography "too tall for the height of the cella"
- De Darwin8u en 08-23-12
De: Anthony Everitt
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The Florentines
- From Dante to Galileo: The Transformation of Western Civilization
- De: Paul Strathern
- Narrado por: Roger Clark
- Duración: 14 h y 35 m
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Between the birth of Dante in 1265 and the death of Galileo in 1642, something happened that transformed the entire culture of Western civilization. Painting, sculpture, and architecture would all visibly change in such a striking fashion that there could be no going back on what had taken place. Likewise, the thought and self-conception of humanity would take on a completely new aspect. Sciences would be born - or emerge in an entirely new guise.
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Narrator ruins the narrative
- De amavita en 03-24-22
De: Paul Strathern
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The Borgias
- Power and Depravity in Renaissance Italy
- De: Paul Strathern
- Narrado por: Julian Elfer
- Duración: 11 h y 12 m
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The Borgia family have become a byword for evil. Corruption, incest, ruthless megalomania, avarice, and vicious cruelty - all have been associated with their name. And yet, paradoxically, this family lived when the Renaissance was coming into its full flowering in Italy. Examples of infamy flourished alongside some of the finest art produced in western history.
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Gossip
- De Amazon Customer en 10-02-19
De: Paul Strathern
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The Venetians
- A New History: From Marco Polo to Casanova
- De: Paul Strathern
- Narrado por: Derek Perkins
- Duración: 13 h y 29 m
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Historia
The Republic of Venice was the first great economic, cultural, and naval power of the modern Western world. After winning the struggle for ascendency in the late 13th century, the Republic enjoyed centuries of unprecedented glory and built a trading empire which at its apogee reached as far afield as China, Syria, and West Africa. This golden period only drew to an end with the Republic's eventual surrender to Napoleon. The Venetians illuminates the character of the Republic during these illustrious years by shining a light on some of the most celebrated personalities of European history.
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Mesmerizing
- De Gary R. Frank en 08-24-15
De: Paul Strathern
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The Medici
- Power, Money, and Ambition in the Italian Renaissance
- De: Paul Strathern
- Narrado por: Derek Perkins
- Duración: 16 h y 21 m
- Versión completa
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Historia
Against the background of an age that saw the rebirth of ancient and classical learning, Paul Strathern explores the intensely dramatic rise and fall of the Medici family in Florence as well as the Italian Renaissance, which they did so much to sponsor and encourage. Interwoven into the narrative are the lives of many of the great Renaissance artists with whom the Medici had dealings, including Leonardo, Michelangelo, and Donatello as well as scientists like Galileo and Pico della Mirandola.
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Fun Story Bad History
- De Elizabeth Barrett en 05-09-16
De: Paul Strathern
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The Bookseller of Florence
- The Story of the Manuscripts That Illuminated the Renaissance
- De: Ross King
- Narrado por: James Cameron Stewart
- Duración: 18 h y 20 m
- Versión completa
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General
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Historia
The Renaissance in Florence conjures images of beautiful frescoes and elegant buildings - the dazzling handiwork of the city's skilled artists and architects. But equally important for the centuries to follow were geniuses of a different sort: Florence's manuscript hunters, scribes, scholars, and booksellers, who blew the dust off a thousand years of history and, through the discovery and diffusion of ancient knowledge, imagined a new and enlightened world.
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Great book, Horrible narrator
- De Sergio Remon en 07-01-21
De: Ross King
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The House of Medici
- Its Rise and Fall
- De: Christopher Hibbert
- Narrado por: Michael Page
- Duración: 11 h y 16 m
- Versión completa
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General
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Historia
This enthralling book charts the family's huge influence on the political, economic, and cultural history of Florence. Beginning in the early 1430s with the rise of the dynasty under the near-legendary Cosimo de Medici, it moves through their golden era as patrons of some of the most remarkable artists and architects of the Renaissance, to the era of the Medici Popes and Grand Dukes, Florence's slide into decay and bankruptcy, and the end, in 1737, of the Medici line.
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Laundry list of names
- De Elizabeth W en 01-02-17
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The Florentines
- From Dante to Galileo: The Transformation of Western Civilization
- De: Paul Strathern
- Narrado por: Roger Clark
- Duración: 14 h y 35 m
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Historia
Between the birth of Dante in 1265 and the death of Galileo in 1642, something happened that transformed the entire culture of Western civilization. Painting, sculpture, and architecture would all visibly change in such a striking fashion that there could be no going back on what had taken place. Likewise, the thought and self-conception of humanity would take on a completely new aspect. Sciences would be born - or emerge in an entirely new guise.
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Narrator ruins the narrative
- De amavita en 03-24-22
De: Paul Strathern
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The Borgias
- Power and Depravity in Renaissance Italy
- De: Paul Strathern
- Narrado por: Julian Elfer
- Duración: 11 h y 12 m
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The Borgia family have become a byword for evil. Corruption, incest, ruthless megalomania, avarice, and vicious cruelty - all have been associated with their name. And yet, paradoxically, this family lived when the Renaissance was coming into its full flowering in Italy. Examples of infamy flourished alongside some of the finest art produced in western history.
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Gossip
- De Amazon Customer en 10-02-19
De: Paul Strathern
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The Venetians
- A New History: From Marco Polo to Casanova
- De: Paul Strathern
- Narrado por: Derek Perkins
- Duración: 13 h y 29 m
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The Republic of Venice was the first great economic, cultural, and naval power of the modern Western world. After winning the struggle for ascendency in the late 13th century, the Republic enjoyed centuries of unprecedented glory and built a trading empire which at its apogee reached as far afield as China, Syria, and West Africa. This golden period only drew to an end with the Republic's eventual surrender to Napoleon. The Venetians illuminates the character of the Republic during these illustrious years by shining a light on some of the most celebrated personalities of European history.
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Mesmerizing
- De Gary R. Frank en 08-24-15
De: Paul Strathern
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The Medici
- Power, Money, and Ambition in the Italian Renaissance
- De: Paul Strathern
- Narrado por: Derek Perkins
- Duración: 16 h y 21 m
- Versión completa
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Historia
Against the background of an age that saw the rebirth of ancient and classical learning, Paul Strathern explores the intensely dramatic rise and fall of the Medici family in Florence as well as the Italian Renaissance, which they did so much to sponsor and encourage. Interwoven into the narrative are the lives of many of the great Renaissance artists with whom the Medici had dealings, including Leonardo, Michelangelo, and Donatello as well as scientists like Galileo and Pico della Mirandola.
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Fun Story Bad History
- De Elizabeth Barrett en 05-09-16
De: Paul Strathern
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The Bookseller of Florence
- The Story of the Manuscripts That Illuminated the Renaissance
- De: Ross King
- Narrado por: James Cameron Stewart
- Duración: 18 h y 20 m
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The Renaissance in Florence conjures images of beautiful frescoes and elegant buildings - the dazzling handiwork of the city's skilled artists and architects. But equally important for the centuries to follow were geniuses of a different sort: Florence's manuscript hunters, scribes, scholars, and booksellers, who blew the dust off a thousand years of history and, through the discovery and diffusion of ancient knowledge, imagined a new and enlightened world.
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Great book, Horrible narrator
- De Sergio Remon en 07-01-21
De: Ross King
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The House of Medici
- Its Rise and Fall
- De: Christopher Hibbert
- Narrado por: Michael Page
- Duración: 11 h y 16 m
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This enthralling book charts the family's huge influence on the political, economic, and cultural history of Florence. Beginning in the early 1430s with the rise of the dynasty under the near-legendary Cosimo de Medici, it moves through their golden era as patrons of some of the most remarkable artists and architects of the Renaissance, to the era of the Medici Popes and Grand Dukes, Florence's slide into decay and bankruptcy, and the end, in 1737, of the Medici line.
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Laundry list of names
- De Elizabeth W en 01-02-17
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Venice
- Pure City
- De: Peter Ackroyd
- Narrado por: Simon Vance
- Duración: 14 h y 1 m
- Versión completa
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The Venetians' language and way of thinking set them aside from the rest of Italy. They are an island people, linked to the sea and to the tides rather than the land. This latest work from the incomparable Peter Ackroyd, like a magic gondola, transports its listeners to that sensual and surprising city. His account embraces facts and romance, conjuring up the atmosphere of the canals, bridges, and sunlit squares, the churches and the markets, the festivals and the flowers.
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An endless droning list.....
- De jack en 03-15-11
De: Peter Ackroyd
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Death in Florence
- The Medici, Savonarola, and the Battle for the Soul of the Renaissance City
- De: Paul Strathern
- Narrado por: Derek Perkins
- Duración: 14 h y 28 m
- Versión completa
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Historia
Death in Florence illuminates one of the defining moments in Western history - the bloody and dramatic story of the battle for the soul of Renaissance Florence. By the end of the fifteenth century, Florence was well established as the home of the Renaissance. In an exhilaratingly rich and deeply researched story, Paul Strathern reveals the paradoxes, self-doubts, and political compromises that made the battle for the soul of the Renaissance city one of the most complex and important moments in Western history.
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Extravagant rich peacocks and true believers
- De Philo en 10-17-15
De: Paul Strathern
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Empire
- A New History of the World: The Rise and Fall of the Greatest Civilizations
- De: Paul Strathern
- Narrado por: Elliot Fitzpatrick
- Duración: 6 h y 12 m
- Versión completa
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Historia
A dazzling new history of the world told through the 10 major empires of human civilization. Combining breathtaking scope with masterful narrative control, Paul Strathern traces these connections across four millennia and sheds new light on these major civilizations - from the Mongol Empire and the Yuan Dynasty to the Aztec and Ottoman, through to the most recent and biggest empires: the British, Russo-Soviet, and American.
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A good overview for a beginner
- De JAusten Fan en 06-09-23
De: Paul Strathern
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City of Fortune
- How Venice Rule the Seas
- De: Roger Crowley
- Narrado por: Edoardo Ballerini
- Duración: 14 h y 9 m
- Versión completa
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Historia
The rise and fall of the Venetian empire stands unrivaled for drama, intrigue, and sheer opulent majesty. In City of Fortune, Roger Crowley, acclaimed historian and New York Times bestselling author of Empires of the Sea, applies his narrative skill to chronicling the astounding five-hundred-year voyage of Venice to the pinnacle of power.
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A Wonderful Listen
- De Scot en 06-12-14
De: Roger Crowley
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The Rise of Athens
- The Story of the World's Greatest Civilization
- De: Anthony Everitt
- Narrado por: Michael Page
- Duración: 16 h y 25 m
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Historia
Filled with tales of adventure and astounding reversals of fortune, The Rise of Athens celebrates the city-state that transformed the world - from the democratic revolution that marked its beginning through the city's political and cultural golden age to its decline into the ancient equivalent of a modern-day university town. Anthony Everitt constructs his history with unforgettable portraits of the talented, tricky, ambitious, and unscrupulous Athenians who fueled the city's rise.
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Good but not great. With some disturbing opinions.
- De Anthony en 06-25-19
De: Anthony Everitt
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Brunelleschi's Dome
- How a Renaissance Genius Reinvented Architecture
- De: Ross King
- Narrado por: James Cameron Stewart
- Duración: 6 h y 36 m
- Versión completa
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Historia
Brunelleschi's Dome is the story of how a Renaissance genius bent men, materials, and the very forces of nature to build an architectural wonder we continue to marvel at today. Denounced at first as a madman, Brunelleschi was celebrated at the end as a genius. He engineered the perfect placement of brick and stone, built ingenious hoists and cranes to carry an estimated 70 million pounds hundreds of feet into the air, and designed the workers' platforms and routines so carefully that only one man died during the decades of construction.
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Great history with terrible narration
- De Whiskey Mike en 12-16-21
De: Ross King
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Augustus
- First Emperor of Rome
- De: Adrian Goldsworthy
- Narrado por: Derek Perkins
- Duración: 18 h y 25 m
- Versión completa
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General
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Historia
Caesar Augustus's story, one of the most riveting in western history, is filled with drama and contradiction, risky gambles and unexpected success. He began as a teenage warlord, whose only claim to power was as the heir of the murdered Julius Caesar. Mark Antony dubbed him "a boy who owes everything to a name," but in the years to come the youth outmaneuvered all the older and more experienced politicians and was the last man standing in 30 BC.
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You know my name...say it.
- De Steven en 12-10-14
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Empires of the Sea
- The Contest for the Center of the World
- De: Roger Crowley
- Narrado por: John Lee
- Duración: 11 h y 18 m
- Versión completa
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Empires of the Sea tells the story of the 50-year world war between Islam and Christianity for the Mediterranean: one of the fiercest and most influential contests in European history. It traces events from the appearance on the world stage of Suleiman the Magnificent through "the years of devastation" when it seemed possible that Islam might master the whole sea, to the final brief flourishing of a united Christendom in 1571.
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Brilliant detail, exciting story
- De Tad Davis en 08-17-08
De: Roger Crowley
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The Boundless Sea
- A Human History of the Oceans
- De: David Abulafia
- Narrado por: Nigel Patterson
- Duración: 41 h y 8 m
- Versión completa
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From the author of the acclaimed The Great Sea, David Abulafia's new book guides listeners along the world's greatest bodies of water to reveal their primary role in human history. The main protagonists are the three major oceans - the Atlantic, the Pacific, and the Indian - which together comprise the majority of the earth's water and cover over half of its surface. These waterways carried goods, plants, livestock, and, of course, people across vast expanses, transforming and ultimately linking irrevocably the economies and cultures of Africa, Europe, Asia, and the Americas.
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Like Reading a Dictionary.
- De aaron en 01-10-21
De: David Abulafia
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Philosopher of the Heart
- The Restless Life of Søren Kierkegaard
- De: Clare Carlisle
- Narrado por: Simon Vance
- Duración: 10 h y 11 m
- Versión completa
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Søren Kierkegaard is one of the most passionate and challenging of all modern philosophers, and is often regarded as the founder of existentialism. Over about a decade in the 1840s and 1850s, writings poured from his pen pursuing the question of existence - how to be a human being in the world? - while exploring the possibilities of Christianity and confronting the failures of its institutional manifestation around him.
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Fatally flawed
- De Citizen M en 02-26-23
De: Clare Carlisle
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Henry VIII and the Men Who Made Him
- The Secret History Behind the Tudor Throne
- De: Tracy Borman
- Narrado por: Julie Teal
- Duración: 17 h y 53 m
- Versión completa
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Henry VIII is best known in history for his tempestuous marriages and the fates of his six wives. However, as acclaimed historian Tracy Borman makes clear in her illuminating new chronicle of Henry’s life, his reign and reputation were hugely influenced by the men who surrounded and interacted with him as companions and confidants, servants and ministers, and occasionally as rivals - many of whom have been underplayed in previous biographies.
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Exceptional.
- De bigdjunta en 08-02-19
De: Tracy Borman
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Machiavelli
- Philosopher of Power
- De: Ross King
- Narrado por: Tim Reynolds
- Duración: 7 h y 11 m
- Versión completa
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Historia
Part of the acclaimed Eminent Lives series, Machiavelli is a superb portrait of the brilliant and revolutionary political philosopher - history's most famous theorist of "warfare, terror, murder, and bloodshed" - and the age he embodied. Ross King, the New York Times best-selling author of Brunelleschi's Dome, argues that the author of The Prince was a far more complex and sympathetic character than is often portrayed.
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Awesome
- De Crisitna Tunon en 07-16-21
De: Ross King
Lo que los oyentes dicen sobre The Artist, the Philosopher, and the Warrior
Calificaciones medias de los clientesReseñas - Selecciona las pestañas a continuación para cambiar el origen de las reseñas.
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Historia
- Robert Sigurdsson
- 07-05-22
Great narration, pronunciation, and biographies.
Although this is another biased opinion about the Borgia family, I did enjoy it. Also, I did enjoyed the names of the important figures, being pronounced correctly.
Good for those who don't know much about Leonardo Da Vinci, Niccolo Machiavelli, or Cesare Borgia
Those who liked this book, should try "The Life of Cesare Borgia" by Rafael Sabatini. For an unbiased look upon the Borgia family.
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Historia
- George Monnat Jr
- 02-18-19
A Very Good Book (Just Not As Good As Others)
I listened to this after I listened to Paul Strathern's other books: The Medici and Death in Florence (in that order). I thought this one was still interesting, but the writing seemed more biased and preachy while the narration was good but not as well done as the others by Derek Perkins. I still highly recommend all three books, analog or audio, because they are fascinating.
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esto le resultó útil a 6 personas
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Historia
- C. Brown Leinberger
- 08-13-23
Brought so much renaissance life…to life
What a wonderful narrative history…about the best in its class I have read/listened to. The connections between the two seminal giants of the renaissance, joined by a force of nature (Borgia), was all new to me.
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Historia
- Loki
- 01-17-24
Incredible!
Paul Strathern is one of my very favorite authors, and this work of his is excellent! He weaves together the timeline in a compelling way that allows the audience to understand the good, bad, and truly human qualities of the artist, philosopher, and warrior. Highly recommend!
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Historia
- Gypsi
- 10-31-23
Disappointing
The author's premise is that these three men spent a small amount of time together, and that time changed their perspectives and, from there, the course of history. Unfortunately, the book is full of supposition and speculation -- especially about Da Vinci -- with these repeated words and phrases summing up the gist of the information given: might; might could have; possibly; probably; must have; in all likelihood; it would seem; it would appear to suggest; it would have been out of character; if we assume; we can surmise. Though I finished it in hopes that he would eventually prove his point, I came away very frustrated as he was unable to do so without postulating.
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